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Dart 1.5

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Re: Dart 1.5

#161
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you mean: MS has a history of abandoning its developer platforms and frameworks that thier developers have invested in, so much so that there's no longer a clear UI story for building native desktop windows apps, i.e. VB6, Silverlight, WinForms and WPF are all effectively deprecated. Although they have long support life, when they officially abandon a platform they also refuse to Open Source it so other…

> MS has a history of abandoning its developer platforms and frameworks....VB6, Silverlight, WinForms and WPF are all effectively deprecated...Likewise with XNA...CSF, WCF, etc... "Deprecated" is just a word that means absolutely nothing here since all of those kits are still fully functional on current versions of Windows (including XNA and the server side stuff that you mentioned). And VB6 is 20 years old! You wann…

> "Deprecated" is just a word that means absolutely nothing here since all of those kits are still fully functional

It means everything, who want's to invest or be excited about learning technology they know to be end-of-life'd? Being deprecated is the first deathknell of a platform that begins it's slow-fade out of existence. At some point developers have to abandon the time they've invested into a platform into a new one that will be maintained in future, e.g. Cocoa/iOS/Android/HTML5/Chrome don't share the same risks of abandonment.

> And I find the lack of a single IDE built and maintained by Google to be sub-subpar

You're talking about your own feelings here, it's doesn't say anything about Google or their IDE tooling.

> Visual Studio is superb without R#, but even if you don't think so

Right, I don't, working without R# is a primitive experience that handi-caps productivity.

> at least Microsoft is making life easy by offering an IDE that is tuned specifically for the task at hand instead of using some open source pile of junk that tries to do everything

That's the exact opposite of what VS.NET is, who is the biggest offender of what you dislike. VS.NET is a kitchen-sink offering that crams in everything into a single IDE, it's the very opposite of "tuned specifically for task at hand". JetBrains platform-specific IDE's, Android Studio, XCode are examples of tuned IDE's for the task at hand. Even the DartEditor is tuned, which is more a rich editor than an IDE. It starts from a blank Eclipse Shell and only adds tooling for specifically developing Dart apps.

> That's a weakness because "cross-platform" means a crappy non-native Java UI

No cross-platform doesn't mean crappy UI, it means having the choice of developing in your preferred OS of choice, collaborating with devs on alternative OS's as well having the opportunity to host on the most cost-effective hosting solution. i.e. freedoms that .NET developers don't enjoy.

> but my main point here is that they don't put forth a very comprehensive strategy at all.

Exactly what IDE's have you used? Your perception of their tooling suggests not much. Android Studio is a very compelling offering and DartEditor actually provides a faster iterative experience which auto-builds on save and lets you debug app code natively from within Dartium in addition to the IDE.

Re: Dart 1.5

#162
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's my understanding that Shumway is basically a full-scale AS2/AS3 VM & JIT using JS as the codegen target, is that wrong? JSIL is increasingly a JIT that targets JS instead of an offline JS compiler, if only because JS runtimes are so terrible at optimizing C# code and semantics. Eventually it may end up being like Dalvik, where the offline compiler runs a filtering/transform pass on the input bytecode and all the…

Thanks! I forgot Shumway. Last I heard it was competitive with the Flash runtime (better on some stuff, worse on others), so that seems like a clear counterexample to mraleph's concern.

Isn't Shumway more of a confirmation for my concern than a counter example? Shumway is running ActionScript which is extremely close to JavaScript semantically though somewhat more strict and allows for optional typing.

Re: Dart 1.5

#163
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks! I forgot Shumway. Last I heard it was competitive with the Flash runtime (better on some stuff, worse on others), so that seems like a clear counterexample to mraleph's concern.

Isn't Shumway more of a confirmation for my concern than a counter example? Shumway is running ActionScript which is extremely close to JavaScript semantically though somewhat more strict and allows for optional typing.

It agrees on numeric types, but it has very large differences like namespaces, classes, etc. Look at how complex the Shumway VM is.

Re: Dart 1.5

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because then his userbase goes from being an extremely small niche(chromium is probably less than 1%) to a much larger niche(chrome is more than 30%).

Dart -- without being in Chrome -- has the same userbase as CoffeeScript, ClojureScript, or any other language that also compiles to JavaScript. There are some real potential wins with being in Chrome, many of which are political, but there are no technical reasons for not being in Chrome to block Dart's adoption.

Except Dart isn't trying to be another "compiles to javascript" language like CS, Dart is trying to completely replace js which is why it's so much more difficult to implement. They have to build an entire VM to rival V8.

Re: Dart 1.5

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dart -- without being in Chrome -- has the same userbase as CoffeeScript, ClojureScript, or any other language that also compiles to JavaScript. There are some real potential wins with being in Chrome, many of which are political, but there are no technical reasons for not being in Chrome to block Dart's adoption.

Except Dart isn't trying to be another "compiles to javascript" language like CS, Dart is trying to completely replace js which is why it's so much more difficult to implement. They have to build an entire VM to rival V8.

The point is that if you write in Dart you still have a very large target audience without the VM.

Sure, Dart's designed to have even more benefit when run in it's own VM, but that doesn't affect its reach.

Re: Dart 1.5

#166
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't Shumway more of a confirmation for my concern than a counter example? Shumway is running ActionScript which is extremely close to JavaScript semantically though somewhat more strict and allows for optional typing.

It agrees on numeric types, but it has very large differences like namespaces, classes, etc. Look at how complex the Shumway VM is.

AS3 also has things like pointers (via domain memory). The closest thing to that in current JS is asm.js.

Re: Dart 1.5

#167
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Typescript is a layer on top of Javascript and existing Javascript libraries With all horrible issues JS has: unpredictable perf, library hell. Also my issues with TS are: 1) what if future ECMA will bring incompatible changes with current TS ? TS will break compatibility or we will have another EEE from MS ? Dart clean break seems like a safer approach. 2) there is no cross-platform IDE for TS (yea I know plugins -…

What's library hell in JavaScript? I've never heard anyone use that term ever. Any links for the perf issues you mentioned? There's some massive JS apps at Walmart and PayPal.

I mean there are many incompatible libs, module and import methods in JS
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