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The Brutal Ageism of Tech

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161–170 of 361 posts

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#161
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a huge part of it, folks who stop "keeping up" with the technology eventually find there is a huge amount of catching up to do. When that happens, especially if there isn't a lot of runway, it can be difficult. I remark to folks all the time that you can take someone right out of high school, and have them spend about 2000 hrs learning about "computers" and now they are 'hot shot programmers' that are…

>Had they instead spent that six months re-tuning old talents, sending out the occasional resume, and building stuff, that seems to get people hired regardless of age. There are two problems with that logic. The first is if you have only six months of experience doing something your pay is likely to reflect that. Second, look at it from an employer's perspective. You can hire a twenty year old or a fifty year old. Th…

I would still choose the 50 year old. If he has a family, he's more likely to be loyal. If he's not an alcoholic, he's much more likely to produce decent work. In fact, a programmer that has to put in 16 hour days at crunch time is either badly managed or a terrible programmer. Most experienced programmers can do as much or more work in half the time. Finally, there's the issue of experience, one where the younger programmer will always come in second. So the older programmer has the advantage in every case, as an engineer would in any other discipline.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#162
post #55

I'm a 40+ engineer in the NYC metro area and I've never felt more in-demand in my life! I think it boils down to a simple idea: computer-science is a dynamic field and THE FUN PART is that you need to always be learning. There are still some colleagues my age who still wax about the days of writing JCL for their mainframe jobs and never evolved past the 80's and perhaps they gave a bad name for others who built on th…

> I'm a 40+ engineer in the NYC metro area and I've never felt more in-demand in my life!

Agreed! as discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7452643

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#163
post #130

Oh please. This article is just ridiculous. I find it hard to sympathize with any of the characters or to find any semblance of truth in anything that was presented. Someone gave the same argument to me regarding Y Combinator - They only invest in 22-28 year olds... Which is statistically probably accurate, but here's a question that people don't think about: What do you think the average age of someone who applies t…

> What, do they think that VC's just go, "Oh you sort of LOOK like Mark Zuckerberg. Take my money."

It's a reference to something pg said about himself:

"""And Graham knew that he had his own biases. “I can be tricked by anyone who looks like Mark Zuckerberg. There was a guy once who we funded who was terrible. I said: ‘How could he be bad? He looks like Zuckerberg!’ ” """

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/05/magazine/y-combinator-sili...

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#164
As best as I can see from Silicon Valley (SV) VCs, what they really like is not youth, age, ideas, or advanced technology but 'traction'.

If SV makes mistakes on age, then maybe they invest too much in very young entrepreneurs. One cynical reason is that people so young can be easier to manipulate. If they have a great business but are doing a poor job managing it, then the VCs can bring in one of their buddies as CEO; apparently in the past this was more common and, really, an intended act.

One SV firm wrote me, "We would not consider investing in anything like your project before you have 100,000 unique visitors a month."

Okay. Suppose 100,000 different people come to my site, on average each person comes 5 times, on average each time they come they see 8 Web pages with 5 ads per page, and suppose I get paid $2 per 1000 ads displayed. Then my monthly revenue would be

100,000 * 5 * 8 * 5 * 2 / 1000 = 40,000

dollars. Then why the heck would I take their term sheet where I would suddenly go from owning 100% of my company to owning 0% of it with some chance of getting back to maybe 60% on a four year vesting schedule, when during those four years the VCs could fire me for any reason or no reason and, really, just take all of my company the day after I cash their check.

And, my company is based on some technical work, and as the company grows I will need to do more technical work. Then a Board would need to approve the budgets for the technical work but would not understand that work. So, the Board would be reluctant to approve the budgets and, more generally, would want to exercise their 'fiduciary' responsibility to 'control' the company. They would kill all prospects of growth for the technology of the company. VCs don't always do this and clearly have not done that for Google, but the VCs write their agreements so that they have the power to do such things.

The solution of the two entrepreneurs in the article is to (1) see a suitable problem, (2) think of a good solution, (3) write the software to implement their solution, (4) go live by having the software run on a Web site or selling it, say, as an app. They should think of (1) and (2) so that they can get to, say, $40,000 a month in revenue just with their own checkbooks.

For the VCs, from a Fred Wilson post at AVC.com some months ago, the average ROI is poor, really, just awful. So, Darwin will be along shortly, and the ranks of the VCs will thin out.

Net, the VCs will have to make money or do something else. If they make money, then their LPs will continue to invest and it will be a little foolish to say that the VCs are making mistakes.

Recently Fred Wilson had a lecture on 10 ways for an entrepreneur to be their own boss and emphasized that getting venture capital is not nearly the only way.

My background in doing projects was from US DoD work and also academic research. From those two, I have had to conclude that VCs do projects in very different ways. While I do believe that VCs are making some big mistakes, some of the VCs are making money. Maybe Benchmark, Sequoia, USV, and a few more are making money.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I have worked with a few hundred programmers and I can only name 3 that where competent before 30. Are you sure you are not committing the same ageist judgement here?

Depends on what one defines as "competent" and the problem space. A lot of colleges that the thirty and under set that I've talked with don't always have a required path in CS that teaches systems and architecture, let alone C (or assembler). So, if one expect such from someone with a CS degree, that could be an issue. The tooling accessible to people today as opposed to those that started 10 years prior is also extr…

That works both ways, though -- I went through college from 2000-2004, and aside from some brief forays into other languages (Ruby and Perl, from what I remember) we were taught exclusively in C. I had some VB experience (self-taught) from middle school, but in my day job we exclusively use C and Ada ... and I'd never really had reason to learn another language. A few years back, I decided that I should learn some new languages for a) fun, and b) the diversity that I'd need if I ever wanted out of my industry. I taught myself Java, and then the Android framework. Then C# and VB .net. What really forced me to start learning new stuff was teaching - I started teaching as an adjunct at a local college after work (the only favor that getting my MS has ever done me), and then I had learn stuff to fit with their curriculum. Anyway, my point is that it's just as easy for older people to be oblivious to new tech as it is for young people to have a complete lack of understanding of fundamentals. I actually teach binary number formats, boolean algebra, virtual machine code, etc. to my students just to make sure that they're not completely unprepared ... and I will say that your point is valid - many of them have had no prior exposure.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's reassuring, but... What's the average retirement age in the US? 60? And here we are consoling ourselves about still being in-demand at the ripe old age of 40.

61 and climbing, but that number doesn't tell you much by itself. If you spend your career in SV as a reasonably in-demand developer and have no major life catastrophes, you might easily retire 5-10 years earlier with good money management. Partly depends on what kind of lifestyle you want in retirement, and where you plan to spend that retirement.

Live below your means, save the majority of your income, move someone nice and cheap (Central/South America, parts of Asia).

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#167
In addition to specific industry issues, ageism in tech in the US seems to be reflective of the wider culture at large here. Older people in the US generally are not respected and their experience and contributions are generally neglected. The "stick them in a nursing home" attitude is extremely common, but even before it gets to that point, disrespect for the elderly is common and is expressed in attitude and culture. Why would Silicon Valley be any different? In fact, considering the amount of young people in SV, I would expect this to manifest itself there the most. In a culture that generally has no respect for its elders, a culture that considers most elders superfluous, why would anyone expect something different?

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#168
post #48
post #11

One of the biggest indirect causes of ageism I've seen is the traditional career path forced many engineers out of engineering - there is/was an attitude at places like IBM of: "If you want to make bank, you need to go into management or sales". Years later, an engineering crunch makes engineering into "where the money is", but you largely lost a generation of technical experience that took a break of a decade or two…

You mention IBM, one aspect that always bugged me was upto the mid 80's they had a thing about people with beards and was some sort of unwitten policey (never worked for them) that nobody could have a beard and any intervewing with them entailed making sure you had a good shave. I worked with a chap at RAND who went onto work for IBM porting AIX onto the mainframe (least that was the initial project he was joing for)…

Re ageism, it depends on where you are and what you are working on. I know and have known many who have 30, 35 and 40 years in and stayed in engineering.

For development, it's all about having your niche. If your niche is stable, age isn't an issue. If your niche is going away, there's little reason to keep a 50 yr old C cubicle guy to switch to consulting, 50% travel and code the latest flavor. There's just no cruising on your laurels anywhere anymore and the market turns over much more quickly.

My observation of recent layoffs is that it's ageism in that most of the people in these jobs are well into their 50's and some into their 60's. Young is 40, and if you weren't in a critical niche, you were just as likely to go as any.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#169
Given the insane war for talent in SV, the idea of a neglected pool of highly competent engineers should cause a stampede to unearth them. It certainly planted a seed in my mind.

I wonder if ageism is driven in part by social media. Us olds seem to be less present on Github/Stack/Twitter/etc (HN, oddly, seems a bit of an exception--I love the posts about historical computing). Maybe reduced visibility equates to reduced opportunity.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#170
post #158
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked as an intern at IBM last summer. It seemed like my entire team was a stagnant pool from the 70's. The languages were C and HLASM, 'high level assembler.' None of my managers knew anything about newer languages like Golang or Haskell. We built hash tables by converting strings to integers and then using modulus. They laughed at the idea of a Linux machine being useful as a server. That said, most of the new h…

How old are the creators of Golang and Haskell ?

Ken Thompson is 71, Rob Pike is ~58, Haskell creators seem to be in their mid 50s.
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