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Russia Blocks Access to Major Independent News Sites

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Re: Russia Blocks Access to Major Independent News Sites

#161

Post by malkung »

trycatch wrote: post #154
malkung wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Eh, neo-Nazis to call to armed struggle against the state? That's just bullshit. Why do you think it's bullshit? Have you seen those images from Kiev of people throwing cobbles and Molotov cocktails at police, and some firing guns? That's armed struggle against the state. Do you know that these people (not babushkas and pretty girls waving flags) belong to political parties or paramilitary groups confirmed as neo-N…

Because you are repeating Russia propaganda. Svoboda is not neo-Nazi, neither it's fascist. It's a nationalistic party, yes, but it's far far far away from being neo-Nazi. Pravyj Sektor is not neo-Nazi either, on 27 February the leader of Pravyj Sektor Yarosh met with ambassador of Israel in Ukraine, and Yarosh explained that they are against antisemitism or xenophobia. Do you think it will be possible would they be…

I admit I did not know about the letter from the Ukrainian Jews to Putin. I do not know what motivated them to write such a letter. It could be Bandera followers standing over them, or something else. You can't really deny the neo-Nazi character of the leaders of the rioters. Have a look here, it's an non-Russian source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-hughes/the-neo-nazi-qu...

Some quotes:

For starters, Andriy Parubiy, the new secretary of Ukraine's security council, was a co-founder of the Neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (SNPU), otherwise known as Svoboda. And his deputy, Dmytro Yarosh, is the leader of a party called the Right Sector which, according to historian Timothy Stanley, "flies the old flag of the Ukrainian Nazi collaborators at its rallies."

The Svoboda party has tapped into Nazi symbolism including the "wolf's angel" rune, which resembles a swastika and was worn by members of the Waffen-SS, a panzer division that was declared a criminal organization at Nuremberg. A report from Tel-Aviv University describes the Svoboda party as "an extremist, right-wing, nationalist organization which emphasizes its identification with the ideology of German National Socialism."* Notice how Tel-Aviv Jews do not seem to agree with the Ukrainian ones.

According to this BBC news clip two Svoboda parliamentarians in recent weeks posed for photos while "brandishing well-known far right numerology," including the numbers 88 -- the eighth letter of the alphabet -- signifying "HH," as in "Heil Hitler." This all makes Hillary Clinton's recent comments comparing Putin to Hitler appear patently absurd, as Stanley adeptly points out: "After all, in the eyes of many ethnic Russians, it is the Ukrainian nationalists -- not Putin -- who are the Nazis."

Last week Per Anders Rudling from Lund University in Sweden, an expert on Ukrainian extremists, told Britain's Channel 4 News: "A neo-fascist party like Svoboda getting the deputy prime minister position is news in its own right." Well, except in the U.S.

There are WAY too many unambiguous images and videos on the internet where the rioters sport Nazi or neo-Nazi symbols to ignore or dismiss as Russian propaganda like you do. Just google for "nazi ukraine" for images. You'll see Tyagnibok (one of the 3 leaders of the "peaceful protesters") there among the top results.

> the Russian neo-Nazis, who are encouraged by your security services.

Incidentally, this is anti-Russian propaganda. There are neo-Nazis in Russia, but they have nothing to do with Putin or Russian security services. In fact, Russian neo-Nazis would be offended by this statement.

Re: Russia Blocks Access to Major Independent News Sites

#162

Post by garrettgrimsley »

antocv wrote: post #142
spenvo wrote: post #3

The greatest instrument used in the societal tragedies of the last century has (undoubtedly) been state delivered propaganda. Japan (Empire of the Rising Sun), Nazi Germany, Maoism (and the following Cultural Revolution), in America: Red Scare (age of McCarthyism, ending as a consequence of JMc.'s untimely death), the Red Peril (the predecessor of the Red Scare) -- the list goes on. The efficacy of those at the top t…

USA is in that bubble with China, Russia Iran etc. Youre just in it and refuse to accept it. Americans too are intellectually subdued.

It's more nuanced than that.

The USA is very good at the use of soft power, and targeted application of hard power. Our profiency at the use of soft power largely eliminates the need for hard power. Iran and China are simply not on our level when it comes to manipulation of public opinion. I believe that the illusion of an independent and oppositional media plays a large part in this.

For example, I can visit any number of violent white supremacist or radical Islamic websites at my leisure. Yes, I'm likely raising red-flags in a database somewhere, but I'm not stopped from visiting.

This is not to say that Americans are not intellectually subdued, they are, but the way in which control is exerted is markedly different.

Re: Russia Blocks Access to Major Independent News Sites

#163

Post by 1gor »

trycatch wrote: post #154
malkung wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Eh, neo-Nazis to call to armed struggle against the state? That's just bullshit. Why do you think it's bullshit? Have you seen those images from Kiev of people throwing cobbles and Molotov cocktails at police, and some firing guns? That's armed struggle against the state. Do you know that these people (not babushkas and pretty girls waving flags) belong to political parties or paramilitary groups confirmed as neo-N…

Because you are repeating Russia propaganda. Svoboda is not neo-Nazi, neither it's fascist. It's a nationalistic party, yes, but it's far far far away from being neo-Nazi. Pravyj Sektor is not neo-Nazi either, on 27 February the leader of Pravyj Sektor Yarosh met with ambassador of Israel in Ukraine, and Yarosh explained that they are against antisemitism or xenophobia. Do you think it will be possible would they be…

I obviously won't change your opinions, but here are some facts that may be relevant.

  Ukrainian Jews seek urgent help from Israel Director-general of European 
  Jewish Association urges Prime Minister Netanyahu and Defense 
  Minister Moshe Ya'alon to send security forces to Jewish communities 
  in Ukraine due to 'growing wave of anti-Semitic attacks.'
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4492710,00.html

http://www.totpi.com/2014/02/25/ukraines-jews-to-israel-help...

Plenty of Jewish activists hate Putin enough to complain that such appeals 'help Russian propaganda'.

But there is another way to look at it, and it is that Russian views are correct from the outset:

The Ukrainian coup that deposed a legitimately elected president has been spearheaded by neo-nazi paramilitaries.

They now control key positions in the government, intimidate their political opponents, including what has remained of the Ukrainian parliament.

Re: Russia Blocks Access to Major Independent News Sites

#164

Post by trycatch »

malkung wrote: post #161
trycatch wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you are repeating Russia propaganda. Svoboda is not neo-Nazi, neither it's fascist. It's a nationalistic party, yes, but it's far far far away from being neo-Nazi. Pravyj Sektor is not neo-Nazi either, on 27 February the leader of Pravyj Sektor Yarosh met with ambassador of Israel in Ukraine, and Yarosh explained that they are against antisemitism or xenophobia. Do you think it will be possible would they be…

I admit I did not know about the letter from the Ukrainian Jews to Putin. I do not know what motivated them to write such a letter. It could be Bandera followers standing over them, or something else. You can't really deny the neo-Nazi character of the leaders of the rioters. Have a look here, it's an non-Russian source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-hughes/the-neo-nazi-qu... Some quotes: For starters, Andriy…

> I admit I did not know about the letter from the Ukrainian Jews to Putin. I

Sure, you didn't, because you get your information from garbage sources by useful leftist idiots from Huffington Post and like.

> I do not know what motivated them to write such a letter. It could be Bandera followers standing over them, or something else

That's just so pathetic that is not even funny. You ignore opinion of the most authoritative Jewish organizations in Ukraine, two chief rabbis of Ukraine and opinion of the Congress of national minorities of Ukraine for the sole reason that they don't agree with your agenda formed on poor quality sources.

> Tel-Aviv Jews, ... from Lund University in Sweden

Yeah, apparently guys from Tel-Aviv and from Sweden see the situation better than people who actually live in Kiev and closely observe folks from Svoboda for decades. Sorry, no, Svoboda is not neo-Nazi, not even nearly. It's a legit party that got 10.5% on elections in 2012 that gets more and more moderate over time.

> the Russian neo-Nazis, who are encouraged by your security services.

> Incidentally, this is anti-Russian propaganda.

They are probably talking about Russian nazis in Ukraine. People like this one: http://imgur.com/a/QeuZp, who is directly supported by Kremlin propaganda. Or like these thugs who attacked peaceful pro-Ukrainian demonstration in Donetsk and killed 2 yesterday. Or like those thugs who killed 2 in Kharkov today.

Re: Russia Blocks Access to Major Independent News Sites

#165

Post by trycatch »

1gor wrote: post #163
trycatch wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you are repeating Russia propaganda. Svoboda is not neo-Nazi, neither it's fascist. It's a nationalistic party, yes, but it's far far far away from being neo-Nazi. Pravyj Sektor is not neo-Nazi either, on 27 February the leader of Pravyj Sektor Yarosh met with ambassador of Israel in Ukraine, and Yarosh explained that they are against antisemitism or xenophobia. Do you think it will be possible would they be…

I obviously won't change your opinions, but here are some facts that may be relevant. Ukrainian Jews seek urgent help from Israel Director-general of European Jewish Association urges Prime Minister Netanyahu and Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon to send security forces to Jewish communities in Ukraine due to 'growing wave of anti-Semitic attacks.' http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4492710,00.html http://www.tot…

> I obviously won't change your opinions, but here are some facts that may be relevant.

No, they are not relevant, that's one more piece of disinformation. Your quote:

> Ukrainian Jews seek urgent help from Israel Director-general of European Jewish Association urges Prime Minister Netanyahu and Defense...

inside the article

> Rabbi Menahem Margolin, has asked Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon...

Biography of Rabbi Menahem Margolin:

> Rabbi Menachem Margolin was born in Israel. After graduating from elementary studied he studied in Yeshivot in Bnei Brak and Kiryat Gat, and then in New York. From the U.S.A he left for a mission of a year to the Jewish community in Hungary and helped the local Rabbis to fulfill their rules. From Budapest he left for a mission of several months to Bangkok, Thailand. During these years he received his rabbinical ordination. In 2004 he was appointed as Program Director of the Rabbinical Centre of Europe (RCE) A year later he was appointed as the Secretary General of the organization and two years later was appointed as the General Director.

Yes, that guy has exactly zero to do with Ukraine. Funny that all this hysteria about neo-Nazies taking over the country is being spread from non-Ukrainian sources, while Ukrainian sources don't see a problem.

> But there is another way to look at it, and it is that Russian views are correct from the outset: The Ukrainian coup that deposed a legitimately elected president has been spearheaded by neo-nazi paramilitaries.

Enemy invaders deposed legitimately elected leader spearheaded by antisemitic communist forces. That's one more way to look at WWII. The problem of course that this view has nothing common with reality. Jews, Russians, Georgians, and plenty other minorities actively participated on Maidan -- something that absolutely impossible in a neo-nazi coup. And sorry, your views are not Russian views, those are views promoted by Putin propaganda.

> They now control key positions in the government, intimidate their political opponents, including what has remained of the Ukrainian parliament.

And that's again a load of bullshit.

Re: Russia Blocks Access to Major Independent News Sites

#166

Post by malkung »

trycatch wrote: post #164
malkung wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admit I did not know about the letter from the Ukrainian Jews to Putin. I do not know what motivated them to write such a letter. It could be Bandera followers standing over them, or something else. You can't really deny the neo-Nazi character of the leaders of the rioters. Have a look here, it's an non-Russian source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-hughes/the-neo-nazi-qu... Some quotes: For starters, Andriy…

> I admit I did not know about the letter from the Ukrainian Jews to Putin. I Sure, you didn't, because you get your information from garbage sources by useful leftist idiots from Huffington Post and like. > I do not know what motivated them to write such a letter. It could be Bandera followers standing over them, or something else That's just so pathetic that is not even funny. You ignore opinion of the most authori…

> from garbage sources by useful leftist idiots from Huffington Post and like.

I appreciate your level-headed unbiased approach. You prefer Fox News, I presume?

> That's just so pathetic that is not even funny. You ignore opinion of the most authoritative Jewish organizations in Ukraine. > Yeah, apparently guys from Tel-Aviv and from Sweden see the situation better than people who actually live in Kiev and closely observe folks from Svoboda for decades.

So, for you, Russian sources are propaganda, and EU and Israel sources are misinformed (apparently by the Russians), and only Ukrainian pro-Maidan sources matter. That is indeed ridiculous. Did you ever wonder why the Ukrainian parliament, where Yanukovich's Regions Party had the majority, adopted anti-Maidan laws on January 16th, but in February was already unequivocally pro-Maidan? Do you think the armed masked "peaceful demonstrators" storming government buildings might have something to do with it?

I think those armed masked people are the reason why the Ukrainian Jews wrote such a letter. I don't see how Jews can possibly tolerate the Nazi symbols and slogans of the Right Sector (see above for images).

Here is what a chief Ukrainian rabbi has to say about "peaceful protesters" [1]:

"I told my congregation to leave the city center or the city all together and if possible the country too," Rabbi Azman told Maariv. "I don't want to tempt fate," he added, "but there are constant warnings concerning intentions to attack Jewish institutions."

Do you have any theory as to why he'd say that?

1. http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.5757...

Re: Russia Blocks Access to Major Independent News Sites

#167

Post by malkung »

trycatch wrote: post #165
1gor wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I obviously won't change your opinions, but here are some facts that may be relevant. Ukrainian Jews seek urgent help from Israel Director-general of European Jewish Association urges Prime Minister Netanyahu and Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon to send security forces to Jewish communities in Ukraine due to 'growing wave of anti-Semitic attacks.' http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4492710,00.html http://www.tot…

> I obviously won't change your opinions, but here are some facts that may be relevant. No, they are not relevant, that's one more piece of disinformation. Your quote: > Ukrainian Jews seek urgent help from Israel Director-general of European Jewish Association urges Prime Minister Netanyahu and Defense... inside the article > Rabbi Menahem Margolin, has asked Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Mo…

> And that's again a load of bullshit.

Is this true or not, in your opinion:

Andriy Parubiy, the new secretary of Ukraine's security council, was a co-founder of the Neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (SNPU), otherwise known as Svoboda.

Re: Russia Blocks Access to Major Independent News Sites

#168

Post by trycatch »

malkung wrote: post #166
trycatch wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I admit I did not know about the letter from the Ukrainian Jews to Putin. I Sure, you didn't, because you get your information from garbage sources by useful leftist idiots from Huffington Post and like. > I do not know what motivated them to write such a letter. It could be Bandera followers standing over them, or something else That's just so pathetic that is not even funny. You ignore opinion of the most authori…

> from garbage sources by useful leftist idiots from Huffington Post and like. I appreciate your level-headed unbiased approach. You prefer Fox News, I presume? > That's just so pathetic that is not even funny. You ignore opinion of the most authoritative Jewish organizations in Ukraine. > Yeah, apparently guys from Tel-Aviv and from Sweden see the situation better than people who actually live in Kiev and closely ob…

> I appreciate your level-headed unbiased approach. You prefer Fox News, I presume?

What an amazing argument, because there are only two media outlets in the world -- Fox News and Huffington Post. No, I prefer Völkischer Beobachter obviously.

> So, for you, Russian sources are propaganda, and EU and Israel sources are misinformed (apparently by the Russians), and only Ukrainian pro-Maidan sources matter.

EU is generally ok, nobody supports Putin, except few marginal media outlets (or marginals inside of mainstream outlet), so you need to mine for a good quote -- Russian propagandists even had to leak taped Paet conversations to mine good for them quote.

> and only Ukrainian pro-Maidan sources matter.

Good sources matter (like independent journalists reporting facts), authoritative opinions matter (like opinion about local antisemitism by local Jewish community). Opinions of some leftie guy from the different part of the Earth, who decided to mine some quotes for one side and call that "analysis" -- no, sorry, thing like these don't matter.

> Do you think the armed masked "peaceful demonstrators" storming government buildings might have something to do with it?

This has everything to do with the president who at first stole billions, then decided to shot in his own citizens killing almost 100, and then fled away cutting all communications, including communications with his own party.

> I think those armed masked people are the reason why the Ukrainian Jews wrote such a letter.

Nice conspiracy theory. Strangely, people like Joseph Zisels were not afraid to speak out in the Soviet Union (where Zisels was held in prison for some years for his anti-Soviet views), but now they are so scared that even write panegyrics about neo-Nazis.

> Here is what a chief Ukrainian rabbi has to say about "peaceful protesters" [1]:

Oh, jeez. You just can't not to bring here all the pro-Russian lies? Haaretz lied. See "How newspaper Haaretz distorted words of Ukrainian Rabbi" [1]. Long story short -- 1) Haaretz chronologically moved the statement by the rabbi. Reuven Azman told about it on 20 February, the day when snipers killed more than 50, so it made sense in context. Haaretz published it on 22 February, when Yanukovich already fled and the situation was stable. So Azman talked about the danger _from Yanukovich_, not from protesters. 2) Haaretz misquoted Azman, his statement was not about all Jews, but only women and children. Extended to all Kiev's Jews by Haaretz. 3) And then Haaretz claimed that Azman had connections with Kremlin -- and that was the claim Azmad actually considered to sue them for.

Now Rabbi Reuven Azman just like everybody else denies Russian lies about neo-Nazism [2] -- "Chief Rabbi of Kyiv and Ukraine: There is no Ethnic or Religious Hatred in Ukraine".

[1] http://www.forumdaily.com/kak-gazeta-haaretz-perevrala-ukrai... (in Russian)

[2] http://uacrisis.org/chief-rabbi-of-kyiv-and-ukraine-there-is...

Re: Russia Blocks Access to Major Independent News Sites

#169

Post by malkung »

trycatch wrote: post #168
malkung wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> from garbage sources by useful leftist idiots from Huffington Post and like. I appreciate your level-headed unbiased approach. You prefer Fox News, I presume? > That's just so pathetic that is not even funny. You ignore opinion of the most authoritative Jewish organizations in Ukraine. > Yeah, apparently guys from Tel-Aviv and from Sweden see the situation better than people who actually live in Kiev and closely ob…

> I appreciate your level-headed unbiased approach. You prefer Fox News, I presume? What an amazing argument, because there are only two media outlets in the world -- Fox News and Huffington Post. No, I prefer Völkischer Beobachter obviously. > So, for you, Russian sources are propaganda, and EU and Israel sources are misinformed (apparently by the Russians), and only Ukrainian pro-Maidan sources matter. EU is genera…

> What an amazing argument, because there are only two media outlets in the world -- Fox News and Huffington Post. No, I prefer Völkischer Beobachter obviously.

To call a news source "leftist idiots" to contradict what they say was an amazing argument. Very convincing.

> Russian propagandists even had to leak taped Paet conversations

It would be very wrong to hide them. Who hired the snipers to shoot policemen and protesters is a hugely important question.

> Good sources matter (like independent journalists reporting facts), authoritative opinions matter (like opinion about local antisemitism by local Jewish community). Opinions of some leftie guy from the different part of the Earth, who decided to mine some quotes for one side and call that "analysis" -- no, sorry, thing like these don't matter.

You have a very complex system of criteria which news source to trust, which somehow allows you to ignore the obvious. Still, you have to convince me the paramilitary groups in Maidan are peaceful, do not wear Nazi symbols, and do not chant Nazi slogans, and their leaders are not now in the government.

> Nice conspiracy theory.

Yeah, very feasible.

> all the pro-Russian lies ... Haaretz lied.

So Haaretz (Israel's oldest daily newspaper) is a pro-Russian news source? Do you realize you insult any news source that is not pro-Maidan and then call it pro-Russian? I find it ridiculous.

Whatever Azman said and why he said that, it is not possible to take this seriously (text from your link):

There is no anti-Semitism in Ukraine’, was Azman’s comment to the Russian propagandists’ claims

if you saw this [1] or this [2] or this [3] or this[4] or this [5] or this[6].

I actually feel sorry for him - something or someone forced him to say this obvious nonsense.

[1] http://image.zn.ua/media/images/original/Apr2013/58868.jpg

[2] http://bstore.9tv.co.il/images/2014/01/16/b1a881c4546b30b293...

[3] http://orientalreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/8777171...

[4] http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/oleg-tyanhybok....

[5] http://nsnbc.me/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/nazi_punk_ukraine...

[6] http://revansh.org/wp-content/uploads/Ultras_narodnoeveche_m...

Re: Russia Blocks Access to Major Independent News Sites

#170

Post by trycatch »

malkung wrote: post #169
trycatch wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I appreciate your level-headed unbiased approach. You prefer Fox News, I presume? What an amazing argument, because there are only two media outlets in the world -- Fox News and Huffington Post. No, I prefer Völkischer Beobachter obviously. > So, for you, Russian sources are propaganda, and EU and Israel sources are misinformed (apparently by the Russians), and only Ukrainian pro-Maidan sources matter. EU is genera…

> What an amazing argument, because there are only two media outlets in the world -- Fox News and Huffington Post. No, I prefer Völkischer Beobachter obviously. To call a news source "leftist idiots" to contradict what they say was an amazing argument. Very convincing. > Russian propagandists even had to leak taped Paet conversations It would be very wrong to hide them. Who hired the snipers to shoot policemen and pr…

Haaretz verifiable provable lied, but it doesn't matter for you, because it's the oldest Israel newspaper. 3 chief Rabbis of Ukraine and the Association of Jewish Communities of Ukraine say there is no neo-Nazi threat from Ukrainians while it exists from Russians, but it doesn't matter for you, because you found few photographs of neo-Nazis in 1 million crowd. OK. I don't know, at this point the discussion as constructive as discussion with 9/11 truther, quite frankly.

Really, your photoset is hilarious. [1], [2], [3], [4] are photographs from 2013. [4] is especially funny -- Tyagnibok uses his _left_ hand to point to something, but you are trying misrepresent it like he is making a Nazi salute. If you want to find a fake Nazi salute photograph, at least find one where the target uses their _right_ hand. Like Merkel on this photo: http://westsidetoastmasters.com/resources/book_of_body_langu... On [5], [6] there is one guy with old Svoboda symbol it dropped 10 years ago and one guy with 14/88 on his shield. Not much, considering the fact there were 1 million of persons with very different background on Maidan. Look, of course there were neo-Nazis on Maidan -- there were 1 million with plenty of radicals. But it was an extreme minority, and it wasn't supported even by the leaders of notable nationalistic forces like Svoboda and Pravyj Sektor. There were very few antisemitic incidents recorded on Maidan -- most notable one was when one poetess recited antisemitic poem from the Maidan tribune (btw she was banned from tribune for that). And it was the most notable one. Compare it with Gubarev, the _leader_ of pro-Kremlin forces in Donetsk, guy completely supported by Russian propaganda, who was real neo-Nazi from RNE: http://imgur.com/a/QeuZp Compare it with Crimean Russians, who attack women for wearing Ukrainian flags [1] and old ladies [2], who kidnap journalists and shot in peaceful Ukrainian activists.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrgizvwCywQ

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Obuy2QEQBE

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