Earlier quoted context omitted.
> So only feel guilt if you help reinforce the imbalance (like commenting on a girl programming, which carries an implication of noteworthiness (since it was noted) and thus perhaps surprise (which could imply by extension social wrongness)). Why is it wrong to consider a girl programming to be noteworthy or surprising? If it's true that females are underrepresented in programming or technology careers, which is the…
It's okay to be privately surprised, as long as you think about WHY you're surprised (e.g. "girls don't code" vs. "there aren't as many women coders as you might expect given the # of women in the US"). The dick move is to belabor the point and treat the programming woman as a performing dog instead of a person. Think of it this way: you meet a woman at a meetup about a technical topic, and you find you have projects…
Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech
161–170 of 175 posts
Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech
#162Paul Graham isn't keeping women out of technology. Nor do I believe he wants to. If anything, his interests would be served by there being more women in technology, and thus more candidates for YC. Also, Valleywag is a cesspool. I ponied up for the whole interview at The Information. I'd rather eat a bug than talk about what a Gawker publication has to say. But Paul Graham has said some things on this issue that I th…
He's concerned about being misconstrued because feminist activists love bullying people with waves of hateful, outrageously uncharitable, deliberately damaging messages at the slightest trigger. For example, here's what PG recently said on Twitter ( https://twitter.com/paulg/status/416994260995416064 ): > Will write about female founders, but traveling all day so it will have to wait. Reserve judgment? Prob too much…
Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech
#163Paul Graham isn't keeping women out of technology. Nor do I believe he wants to. If anything, his interests would be served by there being more women in technology, and thus more candidates for YC. Also, Valleywag is a cesspool. I ponied up for the whole interview at The Information. I'd rather eat a bug than talk about what a Gawker publication has to say. But Paul Graham has said some things on this issue that I th…
The fundamental upstream question here is whether men and women should show the exact same patterns of ability and interest given their measurably different organs, hormones, chromosomes, lifespans, physiology, and so on. Much of the rest of the body differs systematically, visibly, and predictably between genders; it is unlikely a priori that the brain would remain invariant. Here's the late Doreen Kimura of McGill…
Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech
#164Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's okay to be privately surprised, as long as you think about WHY you're surprised (e.g. "girls don't code" vs. "there aren't as many women coders as you might expect given the # of women in the US"). The dick move is to belabor the point and treat the programming woman as a performing dog instead of a person. Think of it this way: you meet a woman at a meetup about a technical topic, and you find you have projects…
> The dick move is to belabor the point and treat the programming woman as a performing dog instead of a person. Sure, but that's basically saying that "being a dick is being a dick." You could also be a dick by treating a world-class athlete as a performing dog. You can be a dick about anything, regardless of how unoffensive that thing is on its own. But that's not what the original statement was talking about. It e…
Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech
#165Earlier quoted context omitted.
While the first article describes poor rather well, the second article is meaningless. I grew up in one of those poor families. I know (unlike him apparently) that the biggest problem with escaping is the good'ol boy system that exists in many fields (but is far less prevalent in technology in my experience and doesn't discriminate on gender or even race so much as it discriminates against the unknown) That said, tec…
From the study abstract: "Men and women apparently achieve similar IQ results with different brain regions, suggesting that there is no singular underlying neuroanatomical structure to general intelligence and that different types of brain designs may manifest equivalent intellectual performance." So as always, MUCH more research needed before drawing that conclusion
Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech
#166Earlier quoted context omitted.
While the first article describes poor rather well, the second article is meaningless. I grew up in one of those poor families. I know (unlike him apparently) that the biggest problem with escaping is the good'ol boy system that exists in many fields (but is far less prevalent in technology in my experience and doesn't discriminate on gender or even race so much as it discriminates against the unknown) That said, tec…
From the study abstract: "Men and women apparently achieve similar IQ results with different brain regions, suggesting that there is no singular underlying neuroanatomical structure to general intelligence and that different types of brain designs may manifest equivalent intellectual performance." So as always, MUCH more research needed before drawing that conclusion
I supplied information (without sources, but you appear to know google well enough) that there exist differences in human biology and hypothesize that these differences may offer explanation for observations of human behaviour. If a lack of absolutely irrefutable causal data is your only objection, then I suspect that the realm of psychology is not for you as such evidence is practically non-existent in that field.
Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech
#167Earlier quoted context omitted.
From the study abstract: "Men and women apparently achieve similar IQ results with different brain regions, suggesting that there is no singular underlying neuroanatomical structure to general intelligence and that different types of brain designs may manifest equivalent intellectual performance." So as always, MUCH more research needed before drawing that conclusion
Look, the most important thing here is to make sure that study can be used to confirm hajile's prior beliefs, ok? Let's keep our eye on the prize.
Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech
#168Earlier quoted context omitted.
Look, the most important thing here is to make sure that study can be used to confirm hajile's prior beliefs, ok? Let's keep our eye on the prize.
What prior beliefs? That observed behaviour may have a reason beyond "privilege" which cannot be disproved? (for proof I refer you to the mantra that "privileged people cannot realize they are privileged" which makes an accusation of privilege indistinguishable from a self-serving accusation from the perspective of the accused)
Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech
#169Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you think his quote is clear and concise, can you unpack it a bit? I find it opaque and confusing. Maybe focus on the part after the colon. Suppose you accuse me of being a witch. I deny it. In response, you claim that my repeated, insidious denial of being a witch just reinforces my witchiness and allows it to feed on itself. do you see how you've just (a) changed the nature of the accusation in a way that makes…
You know your analogy is loaded and constructed in a way to make any rebuttal logically impossible. That's doesn't seem particularly sincere, especially given that the core element of what tptacek said was that one shouldn't feel ashamed to be privileged. It would be hard for me to think of a worse analogy, honestly, since it fails in the most single important dimension! There's also something poetic since claims of…
If I were a witch, I wouldn't be ashamed of it. I'd be proud of being a witch. There's nothing inherently wrong with being a witch - witches are cool. The fact remains that the claim "if you deny being an X, that REINFORCES X-ness and lets X feed upon itself" is toxic and ridiculous. And the main other assertion I could think of that had this bizarre characteristic besides privilege was "you're a witch!" (I suppose "you're a racist" also has that attribute, but I didn't want to go there. Can you think of others?) "Witch" accusations are great for our purposes because it really has no moral characteristic at all. We all know witches don't exist and can't exist and I assume we don't collectively subscribe to religions that are afraid of them (or even if we do, we know that that fear is silly), so it's safe to use them as an example.
So. With regard to any particular person, if they say "I'm not a witch" that MIGHT just mean they're not a witch or they don't regard themselves as one. And that's OKAY. Even if the claim is MISTAKEN and they actually ARE a witch, it's not the case that denying it is uniquely evil. When witch-hunters claim it is, they're wrong. Any person denying that THEY are X doesn't really say anything about whether X COULD exist generally.
> There's also something poetic since claims of "witchery" are a centuries-old tool used to silence women.
Similarly, claims of "privilege" appear to be a modern tool used to silence men. The core essence of privilege seems to be that you have it when a bunch of people (of the right sort) SAY you have it (whether you agree or not) and it's considered rude/offensive/impossible to deny it.
You said: > I'll try to illustrate why privilege is not a scarlet letter but denying it can make one complicit.
...but never did anything to illustrate why denying it "can make one complicit" - you merely asserted this. So I assert the contrary: there is nothing wrong with simply being colorblind, gender-blind, every-other-characteristic-blind and treating people as HUMAN BEINGS first and foremost. Overemphasizing race/gender/handicap is at least as big a potential problem as underemphasizing it. If you always bend over backwards to make sure Tara gets asked what you feel are the appropriate number of questions given her gender, that is patronizing to her. Simply treating her as an equal would be more respectful and productive. Why would you need awareness of "privilege" to pass questioners to the person in the room who is the most relevant expert?
Nobody denies that some people have more advantages than other people. The only thing we're denying is that having some random set of advantages invalidates your opinion. The difference between privilege (what we're arguing about) and advantage (what you just gave examples of) is that privilege has the immediate additional connotation "and therefore you should shut up because it's wrong for you to express views on this matter". If it didn't, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
BTW, Louis CK's routine is funny but he's wrong. (Which is part of what makes it funny.)
Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
You know your analogy is loaded and constructed in a way to make any rebuttal logically impossible. That's doesn't seem particularly sincere, especially given that the core element of what tptacek said was that one shouldn't feel ashamed to be privileged. It would be hard for me to think of a worse analogy, honestly, since it fails in the most single important dimension! There's also something poetic since claims of…
You say the "core element" is that one shouldn't feel ashamed to be privileged. Well, fine: one also shouldn't feel ashamed of being a witch! And why would one? If I were a witch, I wouldn't be ashamed of it. I'd be proud of being a witch. There's nothing inherently wrong with being a witch - witches are cool. The fact remains that the claim "if you deny being an X, that REINFORCES X-ness and lets X feed upon itself"…