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Protesters block Google bus in S.F. Mission

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Re: Protesters block Google bus in S.F. Mission

#161

Post by pslam »

yapcguy wrote: post #152
jpwright wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not paying for permits. The MTA has proposed a permit system for a limited number of shared private/public bus stops, but it has not been introduced, voted on, or even released publicly, and has lingered since as early as October 2012[1]. Even if the pilot program succeeds (maybe some time next year), and Google, et. al., start paying for bus stop permits, there's still the issue of the city turning a blind…

Yes, yes and yes. Google & co. did not ask anybody before they started using the public Muni stops. They just used them. To hell with regulations, traffic laws, and the city of San Francisco. Google & co. are bullying the city. This is the real issue.

The city isn't turning a blind eye at all, and there's no bullying. There's a conversation going on between the city and the private companies involved, in fact. They recognize that the coaches aren't permitted to use Muni stops, but there is currently no better solution - to eliminate them would greatly increase road traffic or choke Muni with the increased passengers.

This is a highly complex issue and you cannot pick on just one player. It doesn't help anyone.

Re: Protesters block Google bus in S.F. Mission

#162

Post by michaelt »

xanderstrike wrote: post #38

I don't get it. The buses are cutting down on personal driving (a universally acknowledged evil), and paying for permits to use the stops (generating revenue for the city). Would these people rather the Google employees all drive personal vehicles, increasing wear and tear on the roads, congestion, pollution, etc., costing the city money? Also, is it really the companies fault that the value of housing in the area is…

One general objection to two-tier systems is that they are a symptom of people with the ability to effect change saying "we know this is broken, but we've decided to just fix it for ourselves, not for you". The emergence of the new tier shows they have the power to effect change, even as it removes their incentive to cause further change.

For example, if the boss has a reserved parking space it's a sign the other parking sucks and he/she doesn't plan to fix that. If the politician puts their kids in private school it's a sign they think public schools don't work, but they don't plan to fix them. If the affluent community installs gates and hires their own guards. In countries with public healthcare, if upper middle class families buy private medical insurance.

When the powerful eat the same dog food as the rest of us, the theory goes, we get better dog food than otherwise.

A person with this view might think Google should use their evident power fix the public transport system instead of putting in place a parallel private system.

Re: Protesters block Google bus in S.F. Mission

#163

Post by Apocryphon »

Cookingboy wrote: post #118
mellis wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who's tried to get from San Francisco to Silicon Valley without a car, I'd love to see companies like Google advocating and supporting better public transportation as well as just providing a private solution.

Public sector unions and corrupt/incompetent government workers in SF Bay Area is the root cause of the atrocious public transportation in this area, money is not. There are plenty of cities around the world that spends less per capita on infrastructure but still has a way more effective system.

There's enough blame to go around- city councils and affluent voters in communities in the peninsula and points beyond who can't break out of NIMBY enough to allow BART to expand from the East Bay are a big cause for why the transportation system is so badly Balkanized.

Re: Protesters block Google bus in S.F. Mission

#164

Post by Apocryphon »

colechristensen wrote: post #140
cpucycling wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not that Google, Facebook, and others are "solving a problem" by providing these bus fleets. They are offering jobs on the peninsula paying more than jobs tend to pay in SF [because SF companies have to pay more for rent and ACTUALLY PAY THEIR FUCKING PAYROLL TAXES TO PAY TO MAINTAIN THE BUS STOPS], with a greater likelihood of becoming filthy rich, to people largely moving from other parts of the coun…

The tone of this comment should be unacceptable in this community.

Passion should be important to hackers.

Re: Protesters block Google bus in S.F. Mission

#165

Post by ChuckMcM »

cpucycling wrote: post #123
ChuckMcM wrote: post #48

It is entirely unclear what they are protesting, other than 'not working at Google.' The alleged trespass of using 'public infrastructure for private profit' is unsupported. People pick up and drop off people at the sidewalk (required, no stopping in the middle of the street). The staged appearance of a guy who is a union organizer (reported elsewhere) added a bit of melodrama. Looking at the action critically, what…

The problem is not that Google, Facebook, and others are "solving a problem" by providing these bus fleets. They are offering jobs on the peninsula paying more than jobs tend to pay in SF [because SF companies have to pay more for rent and ACTUALLY PAY THEIR FUCKING PAYROLL TAXES TO PAY TO MAINTAIN THE BUS STOPS], with a greater likelihood of becoming filthy rich, to people largely moving from other parts of the coun…

Think about some of the things you've said in the emotion of the moment:

"How can someone who moved here as a student and began trying to build a life for themselves in the bay area ever fit without basically letting Larry, Sergei, and Zuck declare the sort of job that people who live in SF can have?"

When I moved here, those guys were in Jr High probably telling poor taste jokes. So 10 - 15 years from now they may have no say at all in what job you want.

"How can people ever own a home in this city if the only way is by being [un]lucky and boring enough to be at a behemoth company or a random startup that couldn't easily be predicted to hit, and take a bunch of stock away?"

My wife and I bought a home in 1985. We were leveraged to the hilt (loans from the seller, the bank, her parents, and our savings). It wasn't "easy", I didn't see any current run movies, I rarely went out to lunch, but we were focused on getting into the housing market as soon as we could. Over the years I've watched all of my friends buy houses.

They were able to do that because they both saved when they needed too and they benefited from the success of the companies they worked for. Few were made 'rich' by startups, most by putting in their hours at HP or Sun or Oracle, saving money, buying their own company's stock with the employee stock program. Most were married or in committed relationships (it really correlates strongly with house ownership if you can split your living expenses with another person).

The theme in your comment is "I want what I want RIGHT NOW!" but life isn't like that. It plays out over weeks and months and years. Trust me when I tell you that if you did get what everything you wanted without effort, without time, without failure. You would hate it, worse you might despise yourself for having it.

If you evaluate your life based on the lives of others, you won't ever be happy.

Re: Protesters block Google bus in S.F. Mission

#166

Post by Houshalter »

ryguytilidie wrote: post #136
icebraining wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get the objection. It seems to me that while the buses may cause disturbances to transit, they're better than the alternative of having a bunch of private cars on the road. Think they would do that for your parking tickets? If those tickets were for behaviors that are actually socially beneficial, shouldn't they? And if they wouldn't anyway, how is it Google's fault?

I mean, how much do you supporters of the google buses want to grasp at straws? It just becomes a series of: -make argument. -have someone explain why your argument is wrong. -make up new argument, disregard whether it is remotely related to the original point you made. Just grasp at straws to seem "right". I mean, we start with "its not like the buses are doing something illegal" to which the answer is "yes, they ce…

Because it's such a minor issue and it's obviously a net benefit. It's not worth getting upset over, let alone protesting.

Re: Protesters block Google bus in S.F. Mission

#167

Post by Houshalter »

yapcguy wrote: post #156
icebraining wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get the objection. It seems to me that while the buses may cause disturbances to transit, they're better than the alternative of having a bunch of private cars on the road. Think they would do that for your parking tickets? If those tickets were for behaviors that are actually socially beneficial, shouldn't they? And if they wouldn't anyway, how is it Google's fault?

It's Google's fault because they did not get permission first before using public Muni stops to pick up and drop off passengers. Anybody else doing it would be ticketed and prosecuted for repeat violations. To anybody who wants to defend Google, think about this - what next? Maybe Google should buy up whole city blocks, demolish them, and build residential apartments for their employees? To hell with eviction laws, z…

Did anyone else try setting up their own bus system and get fined? Did Google actually bribe anyone?

Re: Protesters block Google bus in S.F. Mission

#168

Post by bmelton »

michaelt wrote: post #162
xanderstrike wrote: post #38

I don't get it. The buses are cutting down on personal driving (a universally acknowledged evil), and paying for permits to use the stops (generating revenue for the city). Would these people rather the Google employees all drive personal vehicles, increasing wear and tear on the roads, congestion, pollution, etc., costing the city money? Also, is it really the companies fault that the value of housing in the area is…

One general objection to two-tier systems is that they are a symptom of people with the ability to effect change saying "we know this is broken, but we've decided to just fix it for ourselves, not for you". The emergence of the new tier shows they have the power to effect change, even as it removes their incentive to cause further change. For example, if the boss has a reserved parking space it's a sign the other par…

If that's the view, why would this person imagine that Google had any power or obligation to fix the public transit system?

If a politician were doing it, I would understand the inclination towards protest -- a politician who felt that a public transportation system that was inadequate should try to fix it, assuming they had sway over it -- assuming of course that there aren't more pressing matters, like rampant crime, poverty, etc.

Otherwise, I'm having a hard time identifying here. Should I be obligated to fix the train system because I choose to fly? Why not? Am I not rich enough to be held responsible?

There may be some large piece that I'm missing here, I don't know, but there's really very little about this situation that makes sense to me.

Edit: It's been explained elsewhere that Google is using the municipal stops illegally. Somehow or another, that wasn't clear to me from my reading of the article. This at least helps me understand the motivation.

Re: Protesters block Google bus in S.F. Mission

#169

Post by colechristensen »

rsync wrote: post #150
colechristensen wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tone of this comment should be unacceptable in this community.

Relax. You're going to have much bigger problems if you're that fragile. I disagree with the content and the tone of the parent comment, but I like to see the debate and it's an interesting perspective.

It's not fragility which leads to my offense. I embrace disagreement and figure we would all be better off if there was more of it… but I do not embrace vitriol. There's a toxin in modern culture that leads too many towards this type of emotional nonsense which drives people apart. 'FUCKING BORING' is not a phrase you use when you respect the parties you disagree with, and without that respect moving forward is damn near impossible.

It is a bad thing when such disrespect becomes acceptable in a community.

Re: Protesters block Google bus in S.F. Mission

#170

Post by Cookingboy »

dllthomas wrote: post #151
Cookingboy wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public sector unions and corrupt/incompetent government workers in SF Bay Area is the root cause of the atrocious public transportation in this area, money is not. There are plenty of cities around the world that spends less per capita on infrastructure but still has a way more effective system.

With a comparable cost of living? Over a comparable area? It's perfectly possible that's the case, but "$/capita" doesn't make the case on its own...

The very fact that such a a place like SF has such a high cost of living is the problem. I recently just came back from Tokyo, truly a world class city with multiple times the population density of SF and the highest city GDP in the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_GDP You know what? Cost of living there is actually CHEAPER than here, food, transportation, hell, even housing is cheaper than the joke that is SF.
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