Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Being alone

jessepollak.me

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–167 of 167 posts

Re: Being alone

#161

Post by tptacek »

tomp wrote: post #130
britta wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many potential examples, but I'll explain an example from my own experience. I'm a woman, and I've enjoyed tagging along with my male friend who is very friendly at conferences and similar events, talking to all kinds of strangers and having good conversations. That looked like a fun skill to have, so I tried doing it on my own - introducing myself to other attendees, asking about their work and projects, e…

And your conclusion is that if a man did the same (copying a woman's style of talking to other women, and going around introducing himself to (mostly) women attendees), the outcome would be different? If not, it's not really a case of male privilege.

Her conclusion is that when she follows the standard advice to get out there and talk to people, the men she talks to think that she's flirting with them. Whereas when you or I talk to men, they very rarely think we're flirting with them.

A subtext that you may have missed is that it's very awkward and uncomfortable to have only one party to a conversation think that the conversation is sexually charged, and the possibility of that happening is a disincentive to circulating and socializing.

I thought it was a pretty straightforward observation, but hopefully my summary helps you. Translating basic human experience to nerd-ese --- all part of the service we provide!

Re: Being alone

#162

Post by wglb »

britta wrote: post #79
tomp wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you explain a bit more, why exactly does this advice "just get out there" not apply to anyone who isn't either white, heterosexual, cis or male?

There are many potential examples, but I'll explain an example from my own experience. I'm a woman, and I've enjoyed tagging along with my male friend who is very friendly at conferences and similar events, talking to all kinds of strangers and having good conversations. That looked like a fun skill to have, so I tried doing it on my own - introducing myself to other attendees, asking about their work and projects, e…

Can you say what the adjustment was?

Re: Being alone

#163

Post by britta »

tptacek wrote: post #161
tomp wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And your conclusion is that if a man did the same (copying a woman's style of talking to other women, and going around introducing himself to (mostly) women attendees), the outcome would be different? If not, it's not really a case of male privilege.

Her conclusion is that when she follows the standard advice to get out there and talk to people, the men she talks to think that she's flirting with them. Whereas when you or I talk to men, they very rarely think we're flirting with them. A subtext that you may have missed is that it's very awkward and uncomfortable to have only one party to a conversation think that the conversation is sexually charged, and the poss…

Yes! Thanks.

Re: Being alone

#164

Post by britta »

wglb wrote: post #162
britta wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many potential examples, but I'll explain an example from my own experience. I'm a woman, and I've enjoyed tagging along with my male friend who is very friendly at conferences and similar events, talking to all kinds of strangers and having good conversations. That looked like a fun skill to have, so I tried doing it on my own - introducing myself to other attendees, asking about their work and projects, e…

Can you say what the adjustment was?

For one, I talk less to people I don't know; the potential for awkwardness changes the risk/reward calculation.

I am also more serious when I'm talking to people I don't know - less smiling, more matter-of-fact, cool instead of warm. This is artificial for me since I'm generally friendly, but apparently it's less confusing.

I spend a lot more time reading the situation to get a better feel for how people are likely to respond, including whether people at the conference/event are likely to already have a reasonable amount of experience working/talking with women as peers.

Or I find ways to meet new people while I'm with other people, such as joining groups that have positioned themselves to be open to others joining in. Or convincing friends - or people I've just met - to tag along with me to meet other people.

Re: Being alone

#165

Post by makomk »

roflc0ptic wrote: post #152
nollidge wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your more astute social justice commentators tend to point out that everybody is racist (and sexist and transphobic and and and). Including people of color against their own race, because they are not immune to the constant messages that they are "the other". I think it's good to read those frustrated messages with some sympathy. I don't think they're saying they're completely done with ever talking to white people f…

"I can roll my eyes and stop having to think about it for a while (or forever, if I wanted to), but people of color don't really have that luxury." This gets straight back to the guilt thing, though. This idea that it's a luxury that I have, sure. True. What actions does this observation imply, though? None, as far as I can see, except feeling bad. Should I go listen to people of color voice their experiences because…

Well, if you look at the comment you're replying to it's already telling you something concrete you can do beyond merely feeling bad: namely, being sympathetic to people of colour when they say things like "I'm done with white people" out of frustration, and not (for instance) immediately holding this up as proof that PoC are just as racist and so shouldn't complain. You may not like the idea of doing that, but it's definitely a concrete action.

Re: Being alone

#166

Post by tomp »

tptacek wrote: post #161
tomp wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And your conclusion is that if a man did the same (copying a woman's style of talking to other women, and going around introducing himself to (mostly) women attendees), the outcome would be different? If not, it's not really a case of male privilege.

Her conclusion is that when she follows the standard advice to get out there and talk to people, the men she talks to think that she's flirting with them. Whereas when you or I talk to men, they very rarely think we're flirting with them. A subtext that you may have missed is that it's very awkward and uncomfortable to have only one party to a conversation think that the conversation is sexually charged, and the poss…

I don't like your tone. I think I got all of the subtext.

However, my argument was that if the situations were reversed, the outcome would be exactly the same. Go to a place where there are predominantly women (any dance class or even a Yoga class, feminist conference), and if you and I would try to "talk to them like we talk to men", many of them would assume that we're flirting with them. Or do my observations not concur with yours?

Re: Being alone

#167

Post by tptacek »

tomp wrote: post #166
tptacek wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Her conclusion is that when she follows the standard advice to get out there and talk to people, the men she talks to think that she's flirting with them. Whereas when you or I talk to men, they very rarely think we're flirting with them. A subtext that you may have missed is that it's very awkward and uncomfortable to have only one party to a conversation think that the conversation is sexually charged, and the poss…

I don't like your tone. I think I got all of the subtext. However, my argument was that if the situations were reversed, the outcome would be exactly the same. Go to a place where there are predominantly women (any dance class or even a Yoga class, feminist conference), and if you and I would try to "talk to them like we talk to men", many of them would assume that we're flirting with them. Or do my observations not…

First, I think you're wrong. My wife does roller derby. I have gone to roller derby events with her. What do you think the male/female ratio is there? How many women there thought I was flirting with them? Zero.

Second, I think your response deliberately discards context. If socializing at "dance class" made women think I was flirting with them, and I was thus disincentivized from going to dance class, I'd... what, be a poorer dancer? Britta's story is about a career problem, not a "not fitting into dance class" problem.

Finally, I think your response totally misses the point. You do not win any kind of rhetorical award for coming up with some kind of table-turning scenario about "feminist conferences", because those scenarios don't have anything whatsoever to do with Britta's experience. She wasn't trying to score points. She was explaining why a piece of standard advice given to people about making connections in their profession is difficult for women.

Post reply on HN