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Confessions of a Drone Warrior

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Re: Confessions of a Drone Warrior

#161

Post by phaus »

LekkoscPiwa wrote: post #159
phaus wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that we should start taking our values to heart, but its ridiculous to act as if the situations are remotely comparable. First of all, if Himmler and Goebbels were hell bent on fighting to the death, they almost certainly would have been shot and killed by U.S. forces. Perhaps not though, because high-ranking German officials aren't known for blowing themselves up, so there's a much better chance of taking th…

> First of all, if Himmler and Goebbels were hell bent on fighting to the death, they almost certainly would have been shot and killed by U.S. forces. Perhaps not though, because high-ranking German officials aren't known for blowing themselves up, so there's a much better chance of taking them alive even if they do fight back. It was decided precisely by all Allied Forces: USA, UK, USSR during Yalta Conference in 19…

Once again you are ignoring every word of what I wrote. You quoted me, but neither of the responses had much to do with what I said. They were just a reiteration of your previous statements. We weren't talking about the legitimacy of our war strategy, or who is winning in Afghanistan, we were discussing whether or not Bin Laden could have been taken alive given the information about him that we had before the raid, as opposed to 20/20 hindsight.

Re: Confessions of a Drone Warrior

#162

Post by LekkoscPiwa »

phaus wrote: post #161
LekkoscPiwa wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First of all, if Himmler and Goebbels were hell bent on fighting to the death, they almost certainly would have been shot and killed by U.S. forces. Perhaps not though, because high-ranking German officials aren't known for blowing themselves up, so there's a much better chance of taking them alive even if they do fight back. It was decided precisely by all Allied Forces: USA, UK, USSR during Yalta Conference in 19…

Once again you are ignoring every word of what I wrote. You quoted me, but neither of the responses had much to do with what I said. They were just a reiteration of your previous statements. We weren't talking about the legitimacy of our war strategy, or who is winning in Afghanistan, we were discussing whether or not Bin Laden could have been taken alive given the information about him that we had before the raid, a…

I don't think you understood. There is something that we know makes sense from a military perspective. I.e. Osama is dangerous and must be dealt with at the spot. I understand what you saying. You didn't understand my response which is: this what you described is and must be a political decision and not military one. It was a political decision to shoot him like a dog at the spot. The excuse you give for that action could have been given regarding Himmler too. It wasn't because at that time it was important to us that even monsters like Himmler - personally responsible for overseeing Holocaust, and actually coming up with the idea itself - were given a chance of defense in a trial. Because that was the decision made by the USA President (among other leaders) at that time at the Yalta Conference. You expected me to come on real terms with your cheap excuse? First, stop your own cynism, and come to the terms with the fact that it was a political decision and then we can talk about the reasons for or against it. Don't give me this BS here as I'm some kind of a naive 6 year old.

Re: Confessions of a Drone Warrior

#163

Post by LekkoscPiwa »

phaus wrote: post #160
LekkoscPiwa wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Exactly like SS Totenkopf. Nothing conventional there too.

You're pretty much ignoring what I said. You are talking about a conflict that represents one of the unconventional parts of the largest conventional war ever. In contrast to this, the entire war on terror is an unconventional war fought against guerillas and insurgents.

Every time you occupy a country there will be guerrillas and insurgents. So, I'm not really sure how this is unconventional in this context. It's absolutely normal, natural and to be expected.

With the regard of the enemy of state a so-called terrorist in the US today I have the same fundamental problems as with the enemy of the state called Jew in the Nazi Germany: 1. No definition of terrorist, hence anyone can be one including 82-old nuns: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/oct/10/protesting-n... 2. "Terrorists" are devoid of all human and citizen rights. No right to free trial, no right to the attorney, no right to be not tortured, not right to be suspected innocent unless proven guilty, etc.

So now the dirty work of killing these quite often completely innocent people is handed over to those squads. And they just remind me of "special operations" done by SS Totenkopf. Go there kill a boy because his daddy is a suspected terrorist. And then kill their whole family too. All I'm saying there is difference in scale, but the legal ramifications are very similar. What stops the Government from labeling you a terrorist and targeting you? How will you proof your innocence without a trial and attorney?

Re: Confessions of a Drone Warrior

#164

Post by phaus »

LekkoscPiwa wrote: post #162
phaus wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once again you are ignoring every word of what I wrote. You quoted me, but neither of the responses had much to do with what I said. They were just a reiteration of your previous statements. We weren't talking about the legitimacy of our war strategy, or who is winning in Afghanistan, we were discussing whether or not Bin Laden could have been taken alive given the information about him that we had before the raid, a…

I don't think you understood. There is something that we know makes sense from a military perspective. I.e. Osama is dangerous and must be dealt with at the spot. I understand what you saying. You didn't understand my response which is: this what you described is and must be a political decision and not military one. It was a political decision to shoot him like a dog at the spot. The excuse you give for that action…

If you think that it was politically decided before the operation began that he would be assassinated, that's a different issue entirely. I'm not going to speculate on that because there isn't any way we can know for sure because the people involved aren't going to tell us. You're free to develop a theory, but it will likely never progress beyond that.

I actually agree with you in principle, that a trial would have been preferable. I just don't see how it would have been possible without putting even more lives at risk.

How would you have recommended we go about apprehending him alive, without any casualties? Its clear that the Pakistanis weren't going to help us apprehend him any time soon.

Re: Confessions of a Drone Warrior

#165

Post by phaus »

LekkoscPiwa wrote: post #163
phaus wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're pretty much ignoring what I said. You are talking about a conflict that represents one of the unconventional parts of the largest conventional war ever. In contrast to this, the entire war on terror is an unconventional war fought against guerillas and insurgents.

Every time you occupy a country there will be guerrillas and insurgents. So, I'm not really sure how this is unconventional in this context. It's absolutely normal, natural and to be expected. With the regard of the enemy of state a so-called terrorist in the US today I have the same fundamental problems as with the enemy of the state called Jew in the Nazi Germany: 1. No definition of terrorist, hence anyone can be…

>So now the dirty work of killing these quite often completely innocent people is handed over to those squads. And they just remind me of "special operations" done by SS Totenkopf. Go there kill a boy because his daddy is a suspected terrorist. And then kill their whole family too. All I'm saying there is difference in scale, but the legal ramifications are very similar. What stops the Government from labeling you a terrorist and targeting you? How will you proof your innocence without a trial and attorney?

There's parts of the government that have been caught doing really ridiculous, illegal things, and other parts of the government that have made costly mistakes, but you make it sound like the entire thing is a big conspiracy to kill innocent people in Afghanistan. That borders on insanity.

Re: Confessions of a Drone Warrior

#166

Post by LekkoscPiwa »

phaus wrote: post #165
LekkoscPiwa wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time you occupy a country there will be guerrillas and insurgents. So, I'm not really sure how this is unconventional in this context. It's absolutely normal, natural and to be expected. With the regard of the enemy of state a so-called terrorist in the US today I have the same fundamental problems as with the enemy of the state called Jew in the Nazi Germany: 1. No definition of terrorist, hence anyone can be…

>So now the dirty work of killing these quite often completely innocent people is handed over to those squads. And they just remind me of "special operations" done by SS Totenkopf. Go there kill a boy because his daddy is a suspected terrorist. And then kill their whole family too. All I'm saying there is difference in scale, but the legal ramifications are very similar. What stops the Government from labeling you a…

Yep, if you can kill American citizens without the right to trial, without the right to the attorney, if you label nuns terrorists, if you kill children of suspects just in case - and it is all lawful - that's insane. Not someone pointing it out.

Re: Confessions of a Drone Warrior

#167

Post by LekkoscPiwa »

phaus wrote: post #164
LekkoscPiwa wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you understood. There is something that we know makes sense from a military perspective. I.e. Osama is dangerous and must be dealt with at the spot. I understand what you saying. You didn't understand my response which is: this what you described is and must be a political decision and not military one. It was a political decision to shoot him like a dog at the spot. The excuse you give for that action…

If you think that it was politically decided before the operation began that he would be assassinated, that's a different issue entirely. I'm not going to speculate on that because there isn't any way we can know for sure because the people involved aren't going to tell us. You're free to develop a theory, but it will likely never progress beyond that. I actually agree with you in principle, that a trial would have b…

I'm sure that the political decision to capture top Nazis alive, so they can have a free trial, did in fact cost more lives too. But I will not buy for a second the idea that we killed Osama on the spot because of the perceived higher risks for the Navy SEALs. I'm just not buying it.

I think, that if the US made a political decision to give this monster - Osama - a chance for a free trial, as well as other Al Quaida members that would be a step in the right direction as far as winning the war goes. Because you play by your own rules. When opposite is being done, like killing children who are US citizens by Presidential Order just because their parent was a suspected terrorist killed a week earlier - that's like we're Al Quaida now. Because we run this war the same way they do. Like terrorists. The whole point of 9/11 was that we give up our values - freedom, democracy, rights, capitalism - and we did just that. We became exactly what they wanted us to become. Instead of forcing them to play by our rules. Can you imagine bin Laden having a trial? It's the concept from our civilization. That even the worst monster - like a master mind behind the Holocaust - deserves a trial. That's what differentiates our civilization from theirs. Applying this rule to Osama, and him partaking in it, is showing the Arab world the suporiority of our system. Going there and killing him like a dog when he isn't armed, just execution mafia style, is showing them we're not better.

At this level of decision, I believe that the political decisions always overweight military ones. These are the top SEALs, this dude would stand no chance this or another way. Forcing a trial on him and his organization and sentencing to hanging for crimes against the humanity - this would resonate much more and have better outcome as long as winning the war goes. You show them - you put planes into buildings and kill thousands of innocents - and we still give you honest trial. That's what made us great. Believing in freedom. I think Arabs would be totally shocked to see that. They'd be more inclined to accept superiority of our system. And maybe that's why Germans in WW2 didn't fight after some point. They felt like moral losers. Like the evil that was defeated by something good. I think that's what we're lacking in this war. And without it, I doubt we will ever win it.

Re: Confessions of a Drone Warrior

#168

Post by enko »

hooande wrote: post #48

Drones are just like any other tools of war. The fact that the combatant is sitting very far away from the battle doesn't make the killing any less real, the stakes any lower or the human cost to the operator any cheaper. War is hell because of the horrible decisions that have to be made. Distance doesn't make it any easier. Drones don't kill innocent non-combatants, people do. There are many cases of civilians being…

> the human cost to the operator

Forgive me for putting the "human cost to the operator" a very distant second in my reckoning about this issue, ie dropping bombs on people, wiping out whole generations. This is killing people, do you understand? Dropping bombs and killing people. You know, I want it to be difficult.

> Drones don't kill innocent non-combatants, people do

Well it is exactly like guns, isn't it. Guns don't kill people, people do, but guns sure make it a hell of a lot easier. There is no nation on earth that looks at America's gun culture and thinks "that is a good idea!". Same with military drones.

Re: Confessions of a Drone Warrior

#169

Post by phaus »

LekkoscPiwa wrote: post #166
phaus wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So now the dirty work of killing these quite often completely innocent people is handed over to those squads. And they just remind me of "special operations" done by SS Totenkopf. Go there kill a boy because his daddy is a suspected terrorist. And then kill their whole family too. All I'm saying there is difference in scale, but the legal ramifications are very similar. What stops the Government from labeling you a…

Yep, if you can kill American citizens without the right to trial, without the right to the attorney, if you label nuns terrorists, if you kill children of suspects just in case - and it is all lawful - that's insane. Not someone pointing it out.

Once again, that's not even what I said, but oh well, I think this conversation stopped being productive a long time ago.

Re: Confessions of a Drone Warrior

#170

Post by fbags »

dustingetz wrote: post #135
gbags wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The blame for the cost of war doesn't go to to the weapons or the people who pull the triggers. We're all responsible for the things done in our names, This is absolute and complete horseshit. I protest against war. I vote against war. I campaign for candidates who oppose war. I refuse to work for companies that profit from war. War happens anyway. A soldier surveys his opportunities and realizes he can put money i…

You do benefit economiclly from war, even if you don't do it deliberately. The American middle class lifestyle is made possible by acting in America's economic interests. Posturing about who deserves blame does not solve the fundamental issues.

I have huge amounts of money stolen from me, and spent irresponsibly and inefficiently.

This is not a help.

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