I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#161

Post by eevilspock » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 4:25 PM UTC

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #114

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth noting that the parent post does say that the government should step in, but doesn't because of corruption. I don't think he/she is defending the corruption. I'm with you on the "it's not good enough," but at the same time, you can't just close down the sweatshops if that would make their lives worse. I would say that this is a classic case of needing government to step in, because the problem is not one t…

...and that would be "scarce", not "scares"; my fingers seem to type phonetically when I'm not paying enough attention.

you can click edit and fix your post.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#162

Post by eevilspock » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 4:28 PM UTC

mcgwiz wrote: post #77

RodericDay wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I answer people that say this is: It's not good enough. Yes, you can come up with all the explanation whatsoever you want to how this is a ~local maxima~ of happiness, but the fact is that we live on a much higher one with tons of disposable income and benefit from their work... so it s not a ~global maxima~ (not even close) so we should do better. What can I say? I'm definitely more to the left than most peo…

"local maxima"? The commenter never said that progress was finished, and that nothing more should or could be done. He was merely describing it as better than the prior state, from a utilitarian perspective. Relative to standards of living in America today, the situation described in the article is abhorrent. But social/cultural progress is not fast, direct, pretty, or easy. America struggled through many stages of o…

It's one thing when we're all going up the ladder together, and another when those higher up the ladder are stepping on the heads of those on lower rungs to get up faster or maintain their position.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#163

Post by eevilspock » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 4:32 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #111

RodericDay wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I answer people that say this is: It's not good enough. Yes, you can come up with all the explanation whatsoever you want to how this is a ~local maxima~ of happiness, but the fact is that we live on a much higher one with tons of disposable income and benefit from their work... so it s not a ~global maxima~ (not even close) so we should do better. What can I say? I'm definitely more to the left than most peo…

The problem is that anti-sweatshop leftists like you do things like buy clothes made by unionized workers in downtown Los Angeles. That's not pushing Bangladeshi child laborers up a global maximum, it's pulling them down from the local maximum they've already achieved.

You're assuming that's the only option. What about every single one of us making sure we buy from companies that demand more from their suppliers? What about more innovation around social change and activism and less around things like sharing photos and building "free" websites that ride on the evil that is advertising?

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#164

Post by Symmetry » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 4:33 PM UTC

ksrm wrote: post #155

philwelch wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that anti-sweatshop leftists like you do things like buy clothes made by unionized workers in downtown Los Angeles. That's not pushing Bangladeshi child laborers up a global maximum, it's pulling them down from the local maximum they've already achieved.

Are you saying it is somehow immoral/less moral to not buy from sweatshops?

Yes! People in Bangladesh need money for development desperately. It would be better to just mail them checks, but if you aren't doing that then buying from their (crappy) factories is better than nothing. Even if you are mailing checks the extra that gets contributed from buying clothes made in Bangladesh helps.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#165

Post by Symmetry » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 4:53 PM UTC

RodericDay wrote: post #24

L_Rahman wrote: post #16

As someone who's spent his life roughly equally split across Bangladesh and America, I thought I'd provide some perspective. The questions I ask myself about this situation are: 1. Are the lives of the people who work in these factories better or worse as a result of these jobs existing? The answer I end up arriving at repeatedly is that it is a resounding improvement in the lives of almost everyone. RMG factories em…

The way I answer people that say this is: It's not good enough. Yes, you can come up with all the explanation whatsoever you want to how this is a ~local maxima~ of happiness, but the fact is that we live on a much higher one with tons of disposable income and benefit from their work... so it s not a ~global maxima~ (not even close) so we should do better. What can I say? I'm definitely more to the left than most peo…

No, it's not good enough. But what are you going to do about it? There are lots of people in Bangladesh whose situation is worse than Meem's because they don't have sweatshop jobs. Poverty in Bangladesh isn't something we should just accept, but consider that that factory is doing more to make Meem's life better than anybody else. If you want to change things don't shit on the things that are helping, work to create better jobs and opportunities for people in Bangladesh so that sweatshops aren't their best options. But trying to take away the meager means that Bangladeshis have is perverse.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#166

Post by philwelch » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 5:49 PM UTC

ksrm wrote: post #155

philwelch wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that anti-sweatshop leftists like you do things like buy clothes made by unionized workers in downtown Los Angeles. That's not pushing Bangladeshi child laborers up a global maximum, it's pulling them down from the local maximum they've already achieved.

Are you saying it is somehow immoral/less moral to not buy from sweatshops?

It's certainly counterproductive to boycott them if you don't do anything else.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#167

Post by philwelch » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 5:52 PM UTC

eevilspock wrote: post #163

philwelch wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that anti-sweatshop leftists like you do things like buy clothes made by unionized workers in downtown Los Angeles. That's not pushing Bangladeshi child laborers up a global maximum, it's pulling them down from the local maximum they've already achieved.

You're assuming that's the only option. What about every single one of us making sure we buy from companies that demand more from their suppliers? What about more innovation around social change and activism and less around things like sharing photos and building "free" websites that ride on the evil that is advertising?

I'm definitely open to hearing creative solutions, but if all you have to say is that sweatshops are bad, you're not really contributing. Lots of things are bad. What helps is working towards what would be better.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#168

Post by philwelch » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 6:07 PM UTC

lemmsjid wrote: post #128

hepek wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm getting this feeling that globalization works for everybody but the working man. If borders were open to labor migration as they are to capital/corporations I bet the situation would be much better. Borders nowadays exist only for the lowest of classes. In a globalized economy borders seem like a mechanism of opression. Just my 2c.

Agreed. It reminds me of one of the lessons of capitalism--how Henry Ford increased the wages of his workers so that they could buy his cars, thus benefiting them and himself. He did so because he didn't have a sufficiently large body of consumers for his goods. This is seen as an example of how capitalism is ultimately motivated to uplift all people to consumer status. The problem is when the chain of supply and dem…

Ford raised wages so he could hire the best workers and retain them in a competitive hiring environment in a growing industry. The main reason his workers could afford his car wasn't because they were paid so much, but rather because Ford reduced his production costs overall so that the car cost so little. A lot of that probably had to do with being able to demand a lot from his workers because he could hire the best factory workers.

Paying your workers enough to buy your own products is mathematically impossible to profit from--they're just paying you back money you paid them in the first place, and they can't pay you more than 100% of their salary, so you always pay them more than they pay you.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#169

Post by Natsu » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 6:43 PM UTC

dannypgh wrote: post #118

Retric wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The #1 way to fight back is to quit which increases costs to the factory owner, if you don't then it's better than the alternatives.

If you think quitting is the #1 way to fight back, you must not be familiar with labor organizing, including strikes.

Several states are openly hostile to unions and there are more than a few businesses that would simply close a branch if it were about to unionize. Also, you end up with two sets of bosses, which brings its own issues.

Re: I got hired at a Bangladesh sweatshop. Meet my 9-year-old boss [video]

#170

Post by Natsu » Sun, Oct 13, 2013, 6:58 PM UTC

nandemo wrote: post #125

Natsu wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever worked in a factory? I used to. They squeeze you as hard as they can, constantly. Most of the people have no leverage to push back. While having money is better than having none, that doesn't mean everything is ok and you can just ignore the way the workers get abused. In the US, you can push back at things like unsafe conditions with threats of OSHA. I doubt there's any such thing in Bangladesh, but it…

Well, the original comment by L_Rahman is saying basically that. Except that it's phrased more like "while not everything is ok and you cannot just ignore the way the workers get abused, you also have to to consider that having money is better than having none".

That's a more reasonable opinion. I believe that the solution is to make sure people in situations like these have real, viable options. For example, places of employment with decent working conditions.

Incidentally, many of the complaints against Chinese/Bangladesh/etc. factories could also be leveled against US factories per my experience. Other than the child labor bit, I've seen just about everything here, too, though I expect some of the problems are simply more widespread and occur more frequently.

Factory managers know that their employees don't have a lot of options and tend to squeeze them hard. (Then collect bonuses for cost savings...) It was always amusing to hear them tell the crew how great it was that labor expenses were down. And yes, I did point out afterwards to the people that "labor expenses" === "your paychecks." For whatever reason, this was not obvious to some.