Email service used by Snowden shuts down, warns against using US-based companies • Hacker News Board

Re: Email service used by Snowden shuts down, warns against using US-based companies

#161

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 11:22 PM UTC

mpyne wrote: post #157

rdl wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? At most he required they get explicit legislative authorization, which they did, rather than potentially being more easily struck down by the courts. Pretty much continued doing the same things as far as I can tell.

A significant paring down of the "watch lists" used by NSA (and TSA too, it seems), the revocation of the previous definition of 'torture', scrapping some of the surveillance programs of no useful intelligence value, stuff like that. Certainly there is more that can be done, but I think if this whole affair is indicative of the reaction to be expected then I'm not surprised people avoided making oversight of these pr…

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Re: Email service used by Snowden shuts down, warns against using US-based companies

#162

Post by dreamfactory » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 11:35 PM UTC

haberman wrote: post #96

MisterWebz wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can increase the quality of HN threads by replying to such "paranoid" comments with a counter-argument instead of complaining.

By engaging in a line of comments that is so far from reality, the quality of discussion is lowered because it is off in the weeds instead of confronting the real issues. One of the reasons I generally like HN so much is because there is so much expertise around that the comments often get right to the actual heart of an issue. A great example is something like the P ≠ NP attempted proof from a couple years back: htt…

> I just want to read a discussion that really cuts to the heart of the issues, instead of generic outrage, vague calls to action, and outright inaccurate statements like calling the US a police state.

And yet instead of the usual 100% noise of naive brogrammer narrow political relativism, you are seeing some more interesting replies from people who say they have actually lived in police states and that this is where things are heading.

Re: Email service used by Snowden shuts down, warns against using US-based companies

#163

Post by dreamfactory » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 11:50 PM UTC

chernevik wrote: post #62

criley2 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My reply on Reddit when I see people bring that up is simple: You insult people who have experienced a police state by calling what we are experiencing a police state. A police state has no distinction between legislation and executive. Our legislation is currently investigating the president for: * CIA coverup of the attack on our Benghazi consulate' * IRS targeting of political opposition They're planning on using…

"Can we call it a police state now?" is a question, and one that by its nature should be asked before the answer is "yes".

Except when it's a rhetorical question

Re: Email service used by Snowden shuts down, warns against using US-based companies

#164

Post by glesica » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 12:26 AM UTC

jusben1369 wrote: post #81

pearjuice wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sacrified his life? Please stop. He merely leaked classified data and sold pieces of it here and there. He is basically living the life of a celebrity right now yet dramafies his existence.

HN folks. I think ck2's response and pearjuice's response are both inaccurate as they represent an extreme view. It might be useful to read about celebratory and the attractions and psyche of those that are drawn to it. Many of you here share Snowden's feelings but none of you did what he did. Was it simply his sense of justice that made him do this? Or something more? If he'd stayed in the US and immediately faced t…

He didn't avoid punishment by leaving the country. He almost certainly avoided torture (see the treatment Bradley Manning has received for an example). That makes this a whole different ballgame. He's a political refugee and yes, he is a hero for what he gave up.

Re: Email service used by Snowden shuts down, warns against using US-based companies

#165

Post by danudey » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 12:33 AM UTC

graeme wrote: post #139

res0nat0r wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple test to see if you currently live in a police state: You've freely typed this critical comment about the government on an internet message board. You will be comfortably typing another critical comment Monday morning when you are back at work and were not thrown in jail over the weekend to rot. You don't live in a police state.

This test fails to detect many existing police states. I lived in Cuba for a while. Many people would consider that a police state. Yet people were free to vocally criticize the government. And they did. The government tolerated it because they knew those particular people were harmless. It only clamped down on those that posed an actual threat to their authority.

The ideal police state treats law-abiding citizens very well (free schooling, education, social programs, etc.), and treats law-breaking citizens very poorly.

Cuba is an especially interesting case because it's a communist police state which is also a tourist destination for huge amounts of free, affluent Westerners every year. That means that they can't use any of the standard 'scare tactics' of a police state (assuming they would if they could), such as having soldiers policing the street constantly.

I was also told by a guide that they don't allow imagery of the ruling leader (e.g. posters to say 'Hey, Fidel is so great!') because they don't want government to turn into hero worship. After a leader is dead, then their image can be used in 'publicity', but not before.

So Cuba's a really interesting state.

Re: Email service used by Snowden shuts down, warns against using US-based companies

#166

Post by graeme » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 1:08 AM UTC

danudey wrote: post #165

graeme wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This test fails to detect many existing police states. I lived in Cuba for a while. Many people would consider that a police state. Yet people were free to vocally criticize the government. And they did. The government tolerated it because they knew those particular people were harmless. It only clamped down on those that posed an actual threat to their authority.

The ideal police state treats law-abiding citizens very well (free schooling, education, social programs, etc.), and treats law-breaking citizens very poorly. Cuba is an especially interesting case because it's a communist police state which is also a tourist destination for huge amounts of free, affluent Westerners every year. That means that they can't use any of the standard 'scare tactics' of a police state (assu…

They police people pretty heavily with neighborhood watch associations called CDRs. But, from my experience, the hammer only came down when someone rose above a certain threshold of undesired activity.

You're right, I saw no Fidel images. Tons of Che.

Re: Email service used by Snowden shuts down, warns against using US-based companies

#167

Post by mh- » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 1:56 AM UTC

MrKurtz wrote: post #114

robrenaud wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened when Google left China?

Their shares went down immediately after due to concerns they forfeited the opportunity to expand their business in the world's 2nd largest economy, but as the immediate economic damage was immaterial their decision wasn't followed with a deluge of shareholder lawsuits. Google already bowed out of one major market due to ethical disagreements, asking them to do that again with their home market is unrealistic - lobby…

US policy: it's still not China.

now there's a campaign slogan for 2016.

Re: Email service used by Snowden shuts down, warns against using US-based companies

#168

Post by penguindev » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 2:49 AM UTC

lukifer wrote: post #99

celticninja wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That they can take your assests without proving any criminal wrongdoing surely tips the balance into police state.

At some point, it becomes a pointless semantic game. It's clearly not Stalin-bad, but it's still pretty damn bad. There are solid reasons both to support and dispute the label of "police state". To strive for accuracy, I'd go with "unaccountable oligarchy" or "faux-democratic tyrannical beauracracy". Not as punchy, admittedly. You could also call it "soft fascism". Ultimately, we live in a new and unprecedented form…

How about some doublespeak of 'compassionate fascism'. or "Uniquely American Fascism". or "Freedom Fascism".

Re: Email service used by Snowden shuts down, warns against using US-based companies

#169

Post by anovikov » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 3:59 AM UTC

Raphmedia wrote: post #134

anovikov wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

okay okay, i am not doubting Snowden is a good guy. I am just trying to tell there is nothing so tragic in his current situation (while of course, he risked much more). One day life will pay him back for this. And for now, he will be just fine. And there are plenty of good girls to date in Russia (and many of them are already attacking him).

He stills pretty much explodes Holmes and Rahe stress scale. Some people would have simply killed themselves. Sure, the guy has grit. Doesn't mean that he likes being there. It's a whole different life style. You have to build everything from the ground up.

Millions of people every year do the same, tens of thousands of them for same reasons (political dissidents turning refugees). And, normally they have lower status in their receiving countries than in home ones (because they are usually public persons with some visibility before leaving, otherwise it's hard to be a dissident), which is the reverse for Snowden who is a humble sysadmin turned celebrity.

Of course, it's better for him to stay in Russia then going to Equador as he planned, at least he will get a good job there. Certainly he will dislike St. Petersburg climate when the winter falls (very cold and humid), but there are places with decent climate and still good jobs.

Re: Email service used by Snowden shuts down, warns against using US-based companies

#170

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 3:41 PM UTC

res0nat0r wrote: post #131

rdtsc wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You insult people who have experienced a police state by calling what we are experiencing a police state. Did you live in a police state? I have. What police state calls itself "police state"? Hint: no state calls itself that. There is always a nice fluffy propaganda label slapped on top. "Freedom Loving Republic Of ..." > Our legislation is currently investigating the president for: Oh look, two investigations. Do…

Simple test to see if you currently live in a police state: You've freely typed this critical comment about the government on an internet message board. You will be comfortably typing another critical comment Monday morning when you are back at work and were not thrown in jail over the weekend to rot. You don't live in a police state.

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