Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

defcon.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 260 posts

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#161

Post by snowwrestler »

contingencies wrote: post #87
anonymous wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supporting ICANN is hardly working in the name of "good". Sure, working with ICANN may not be associated with "evil". However to those in the know, it is associated with greed under the guise of "service to the public". Personally, I'd prefer a world where ICANN, namely the centralization and commercialization of domain names to benefit a select few insiders and an array of parasitic sleazebags, gave way to a non-ant…

However to those in the know, it is associated with greed under the guise of "service to the public". Don't forget a US-centric internet, far more readily controlled and manipulated by that state than any other.

I have heard exactly zero accusations that ICANN is doing anything to control or manipulate the Internet for the good of the U.S. None of the recent revelations about Prism, tapping cables, etc. have anything to do with ICANN.

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#163

Post by javert »

uxp wrote: post #148
mcantelon wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I think "1 degree removed" is better than the alternative, you do have a valid point.

Life is not binary. Imagine you're in a room you can't get out of. By the nature of aerobic respiration, you're slowly transforming all the oxygen into carbon dioxide. Now imagine there is a running car in the room with you. Do you first shut off the car to prevent it from filling up the room with exhaust and carbon monoxide, or do you give up because there's no point in life? You can either give up by selling all yo…

> do something to stop the things that are taking away your freedoms and liberties, or at the very least, do something to make it harder for those that want to take away your freedoms to do so.

Like what? (Last time I asked this question on HN I got about 5 answers that said "Call your Congressman," which I don't agree with.) I honestly don't believe there's anything I can do that would change things meaningfully, even if I dedicated my whole life to it, short of maybe starting a major political movement, which I highly doubt I'd be able to do.

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#164

Post by snowwrestler »

msandford wrote: post #70
grogenaut wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They get sub $5 gas. That's what the money is being spent on.

The average car is driven say 10k miles per year. At 20mpg that's 500 gallons of gas. At $4 per gallon, it's $2k. At $8 per gallon, that's $4k. A difference of only $2k. I'm not sure that the money on wars is well spent (even in a callous, dollars only sense) if it's saving the average household $4k a year in gas money (two cars).

$2,000 is a lot of money to a lot of Americans.

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#165

Post by snowwrestler »

throwawayDC21 wrote: post #95
msandford wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average car is driven say 10k miles per year. At 20mpg that's 500 gallons of gas. At $4 per gallon, it's $2k. At $8 per gallon, that's $4k. A difference of only $2k. I'm not sure that the money on wars is well spent (even in a callous, dollars only sense) if it's saving the average household $4k a year in gas money (two cars).

The pump is not the only place that you pay for gas.

Yup, there used to be an old ad campaign--"If you have it, a truck brought it." And it's true--although with modern supply chains today we probably should also throw in ships, trains, and airplanes.

Transportation costs are embedded in the cost of every physical good.

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#166

Post by jack-r-abbit »

jmharvey wrote: post #86
richo wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I doubt it. They had a legit enigma machine last year. It was cool. Their booth was busy because of it. That said, I doubt anyone interested in working for the NSA would be put off by this/the recent leaks, or that anyone who didn't want to work for the NSA was going to change their mind at DEF CON.

People care about what their peers think of them. Even if a recruit don't have a problem with what the NSA does, the job is significantly less "cool" today than it was not that long ago.

Not everyone cares what their peers think of them... particularly if they in turn think their peers are being dicks. And not everyone has the same opinion (or level of outrage) over what the NSA has done.

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#167

Post by obituary_latte »

mhurron wrote: post #159
david_shaw wrote: post #49

This is going to be my tenth (?!) year at DEF CON. The culture of DEF CON, and especially its evolution, is a very interesting one. When I first attended DEF CON, it was a bunch of seemingly scary hackers. Fortunately, it turns out most of them were amazing people. As the conference grew (and changed venues several times), the culture began to evolve. The barrier to entry--in terms of being "accepted" into the subcul…

>It's a booze-fueled learning, partying and networking event unlike any other Is there any way to get use out of it that doesn't include 'booze-fueled and partying'. I have no problem with booze, but I definitely dislike partying. Yes, I'm a wet blanket, but if the partying atmosphere is where the use comes from, I would seriously be uninterested. I know that actually does limit the networking part too.

>Is there any way to get use out of it that doesn't include 'booze-fueled and partying'.

Sure, you can check out the talks, wander around the venue (CTF, vendor booths, etc), talk to people. The "partying" isn't as rampant as some may have you believe. Sure there are parties, but it's not like you will be dragged into one. They also appear to be non-inclusive. I know I wasn't invited to any last year (and I'm no wet towel! ;). In fact, I was uninvited to one (you can't come; it's "private"). There is still plenty to get out of going and plenty of fun to be had.

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#168

Post by mpyne »

a3n wrote: post #149
mpyne wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Man, I really shouldn't have designed that RFID toolbooth so oppressively.... I'll have to do better than that in the future. :("

Your point is taken, not all security work is oppressive. And my comment was calculated to be over the top. The narrower point being, of course, if you're involved in work that supports Constitutional violations, you should think about what you're doing. Hard. Because if your work supports these things, then you're destroying what you probably signed up to protect. Probably not your fault, the mission was hijacked. B…

> The narrower point being, of course, if you're involved in work that supports Constitutional violations, you should think about what you're doing. Hard.

Well, even things like PRISM have valid Constitutional and national security usages. Things like metadata collection have been allowed for decades as well, under the auspices of valid law enforcement investigations.

Holding all Internet traffic in a buffer for 5 years? Collecting all email metadata that passes by? Now that's getting risky, but how many people do you think are actually involved in that? And why is that less dangerous than CALEA (something which DEFCON didn't kick out the Feds for...)?

If you flip the concept to instead be "could what I'm working on possibly be used for oppression" then there are a lot more government workers than you might think that would have to be introspective.

It has the worse effect of muddying lines of responsibility ("I couldn't have done this bad thing if $FOO hadn't build it!"), which is another path we don't want to go down... the same logic that blames the analyst for creating a process with valid purpose and bad effect could be used to blame the HR rep for hiring the analyst, or the janitor for keeping his workspace clean. And all the while we should be pointing our fingers at the person who actually did something wrong!

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#169

Post by etherael »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #126
majelix wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not true at all. It entirely depends on what you're building. No it doesn't. He's making the same argument terrorists sometimes use to justify their actions. We're not innocent -- that by paying taxes, voting, and otherwise being a member of our society, we're culpable for what that society chooses to do. You don't get to pick and choose what your taxes fund; in large part, that's the whole point of taxation.

There's still a difference. When I am in a room, I contribute to the humidity of that room. Now imagine me turning on the faucet or boiling some water.... and then saying "I can't turn them off, it would make no sense, I would contribute to the humidity either way!". I'll just go ahead and say if people can't think at all, so that they only know the difference between "nothing exists" and "everything is the same", th…

Sure, there are degrees of contribution, and direct is clearly more intentioned than indirect, but at the end of the day the beast doesn't care if it's fed willingly or unwillingly, and the vast majority of government funding is involuntary. If it's going to die, it needs to be unable to feed, what people are willing to contribute is irrelevant when its primary income is violently coerced.

I have thought long and hard about that underlying argument and at the end of the day I both could not find a flaw with it, and was subsequently compelled to become a globally nomadic anarcho capitalist, just to avoid being forced to contribute to what amounts to only a fairly tame by comparison lackey of the US.

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#170

Post by etherael »

uxp wrote: post #148
mcantelon wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I think "1 degree removed" is better than the alternative, you do have a valid point.

Life is not binary. Imagine you're in a room you can't get out of. By the nature of aerobic respiration, you're slowly transforming all the oxygen into carbon dioxide. Now imagine there is a running car in the room with you. Do you first shut off the car to prevent it from filling up the room with exhaust and carbon monoxide, or do you give up because there's no point in life? You can either give up by selling all yo…

>You can either give up by selling all your belongings and begin to live on the street as a non-tax paying citizen, or you can do something to stop the things that are taking away your freedoms and liberties, or at the very least, do something to make it harder for those that want to take away your freedoms to do so.

False dichotomy, there are other options that both don't lend any legitimacy to the state and allow you to live a pretty good life these days. Especially for people with technically advanced skillets. The world is much bigger than the tax farm you were born in which claims dominion over you, and outside the borders of that farm, its powers are greatly diminished.

Post reply on HN