Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

mailman.stanford.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 186 posts

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#161

Post by wwweston »

Shivetya wrote: post #103
TelmoMenezes wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scary thing is this: these people were already voted away. People voted for Obama when he promised the end of warrantless wiretapping, the closing down of Guantanamo, etc. Why should voters believe the next guy who promises these things? It feels hopeless.

what was the excuse for voting for him again in 2012? really I fail to understand people here, One day they bitch about invasion of privacy the next day they want the same people to have every bit of control over their health care. Well guess what, you cannot have it both ways. Granted he had help from a major government agency interfering with groups opposed to his reelection from gathering funds. So perhaps you did…

> what was the excuse for voting for him again in 2012?

It probably depends on which person you're talking about and how they decide to allocate votes: some people vote to signal some measure of approval of a candidate, some people vote to send one kind of message or another, some people just vote to select one of the available candidates.

> One day they bitch about invasion of privacy the next day they want the same people to have every bit of control over their health care.

I don't know what your level of familiarity with the various threats to civil liberties is, but after reading this, one could be forgiven for thinking that you don't know very much about the recent health care legislation if your working summary is that it provides for the government to have "every bit of control" over each individual's health care.

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#162

Post by nitrogen »

temp453463343 wrote: post #131
fargolime wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Looking forward to conflict" comment auto-logged, reference #391Z328. Report to the proper authorities within 24 hours for interrogation. You've been auto-added to the no-fly list. That's likely what will happen from here, because only a small percentage of American voters care about this issue.

Lol. I think it's telling of how non-serious this whole issue is - when the absolute worst the government can do is make it harder for you to fly.

The freedom to travel (and thus conduct business, politics, or pleasure in more than one place) is one of the essential freedoms of a just society.

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#163

Post by fexl »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #92
b6 wrote: post #17

I'm a peaceful person, but this issue has been simmering in my head for years, and I find myself actually looking forward to some kind of meaningful conflict. I'm sick, sick, sick to death of the president issuing denials while they keep building more and more infrastructure against humanity. I think the article is right, that it'll get worse from here, and in a way, I'm glad.

Unfortunately, despite all hopes, Americans persistently persist in not revolting against their government. I despair of the Revolution coming any time soon.

Revolution is one violent gang fighting another violent gang, producing a new boss that's same as the old boss. Instead, seriously consider ways of living and behaving which minimize your contact with and support for all gangs.

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#164

Post by robomartin »

tokenizer wrote: post #152
robomartin wrote: post #129

I know a couple of people that, for as long as I've known them, have been consumed by this idea of having to be able to defend yourself from an intrusive government. They, as one would expect, have gun safes full of guns of all types, piles of ammunition and other survivalist tools and equipment. When the Newtown school massacre happened I actually called a friend in the Sheriff's department to ask if I should "drop…

You can't, because a rebellion/revolution is a potentiality. Sure, it seemed unlikely, but now not so much. Would I criticize someone for not locking their front door? No. Locks only keep honest people honest, and the chances of your property being broken into are fairly slim. Would I criticize someone for preparing themselves for a collapse/rebellion/revolution of some kind? Absolutely not. The cost of not doing so…

I have not locked my cars in probably fifteen years. In the summer I usually leave all the car windows open (all day). Most of my neighbors do the same. It is common to see garage doors open all night in my neighborhood.

When I want to throw out something like a bike it can stay on the sidewalk for weeks if I don't put a sign on it that says "free, take me". So it should come as no surprise that we don't really feel the need to own weapons for any reason whatsoever. I enjoy target practice at the range a few times a year with my son. It's fun, and I think it is important to learn --particularly safety.

Now, I have lived and worked in areas of Los Angeles where you would not dare leave your car unlocked for one hour. I've had car stereos and whole cars stolen from right outside my window in those areas. What did we do? We moved.

Ultimately you need to consider what it is you want from life. If I have to own a weapon to feel safe at home I am living in the wrong place. I realize one isn't always free to make these kinds of choices. I get it. I also have to question if owning a few guns is of any use whatsoever as it pertains to curtailing a corrupt or over-reaching government.

Perhaps my point is that, if we have to resort to an internal armed conflict to bring our government in line we will have already failed at so many levels that this will, at that time, in no way resemble the country I grew up in.

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#165

Post by wwweston »

andyhmltn wrote: post #52
pilif wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time people were looking forward to a meaningful conflict, it plunged the whole world into 4 years of war, followed by another 7. Be careful what you wish for. We need a peaceful solution for this. Vote these people away. Replace them by better people. Educate those who think they have nothing to hide.

Sadly those votes don't mean a thing when there's lobbyists involved.

> Sadly those votes don't mean a thing when there's lobbyists involved.

I honestly think this might be the most important insight in the modern political landscape -- though I think it's incompletely expressed in the language on display here.

The central truth is that voting on its own is a pretty limited form of civic interaction, and as long as it's the only one, officials and citizens will tend to be pretty isolated from one another.

Lobbyists close the loop. Of course, as long as that means hired lobbying, it only closes the loop for people who can afford to hire people to lobby for them.

The question I think this analysis brings up is whether we have too many lobbyists or too few.

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#166

Post by nitrogen »

jasonlotito wrote: post #100
ak39 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False dichotomy. The problem is not Democracy vs every other non-democratic system, it's in the implementation details of the current versions. We just need to refactor Democracy Version 1.0. Far from a rewrite. And where do we begin? Upholding campaign promises, that's where. They must be watertight like contracts where the voters can sue.

You'd have no more campaign promises. And truth be told, what you suggest is dangerous. In fact, it would create a situation worse than the one we have now. I'd rather our politicians tell us what they want to do. Then, when they are in power, and have the means to do those things, balance it with the knowledge they've gathered from having access to all that power. Maybe the issue is that politicians too easily make…

I'd rather our politicians tell us what they want to do. Then, when they are in power, and have the means to do those things, balance it with the knowledge they've gathered from having access to all that power.

What prevents them from sharing that knowledge, so the people who voted for them actually believe them when they say they had good reason for breaking campaign promises? Why is it always nebulous non-information like "there are threats" instead of "we are now tracking XX organizations with Y and Z capabilities and intentions, with exhibits A, B, and C proving this fact"?

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#167

Post by m52go »

b6 wrote: post #17

I'm a peaceful person, but this issue has been simmering in my head for years, and I find myself actually looking forward to some kind of meaningful conflict. I'm sick, sick, sick to death of the president issuing denials while they keep building more and more infrastructure against humanity. I think the article is right, that it'll get worse from here, and in a way, I'm glad.

I prefer peace as well, but this needs to get physical for it to get real.

Hacker News, The Guardian, The Atlantic, Medium, etc. will never overpower CNN, NBC, et al.

TPTB have a lock on the media. Do you recall how they ignored Ron Paul's early victories in the 2012 election? It doesn't matter that he ACTUALLY had a chance early on, because the mainstream media never let it be.

Peaceful negotiation cannot take place because the ruling political class is in denial. Meaningful education cannot take place because of a media controlled by TPTB. Not even virality can help either, because virality is fleeting, and eventually the media reverts back to its stupid self.

There needs to be something REAL to really move forward. Something physical, lasting, emotional. Something like OWS (mostly peaceful but widespread) combined with the Arab Spring (not peaceful but very emotional).

Shit needs to go down, basically, or the majority will never get awoken out of its stupor.

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#168

Post by microb »

cdvonstinkpot wrote: post #64
microb wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm about to say is absolutely nuts, but it could be that this is something the NSA leaked intentionally and the media is running with it for reasons we are not aware of. Despite twitter and the like, the mainstream media is still largely in control of what occupies the "news" and therefore what the otherwise apathetic public is concerned about.

Ok, I'll bite. What sort of hypothetical could warrant such an action, intentionally leaking this story? Do they want to reassure us of their best efforts in protecting us from terrorism? I can't imagine a scenario existing where the tables might eventually turn & those who were once appalled & angry that the NSA was so into everything change their minds and become reassured that the gov't is actually on their game &…

Security reassurance is something I hadn't thought of, but I think you are right that this leak goes way too far for that to work. I don't believe this either...but if I wore a tinfoil-hat I would point out that:

1) The NSA "leak" is not really news because it was reported in 2006[1].

2) "Bad" publicity from it is the beginning of Obama's 2nd term downfall which is happening too soon in his 2nd term for us to be angry enough to elect a Libertarian 2016. It'll be an opportune time to usher in an all-talk small government Republican in 2016 to maintain Red State vs. Blue State illusion. Even if the Repub doesn't win, it'll look like the election was a close ideological fight, which is all that matters in the eyes of the public. Of course, all 2016 candidates will continue to support the NSA oversight regardless of what they say during their campaign, so it won't matter whether red or blue gets the oval office.

Like I said... science fiction.

[1]http://yahoo.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.h...

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#169

Post by [deleted] »

cdvonstinkpot wrote: post #64
microb wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm about to say is absolutely nuts, but it could be that this is something the NSA leaked intentionally and the media is running with it for reasons we are not aware of. Despite twitter and the like, the mainstream media is still largely in control of what occupies the "news" and therefore what the otherwise apathetic public is concerned about.

Ok, I'll bite. What sort of hypothetical could warrant such an action, intentionally leaking this story? Do they want to reassure us of their best efforts in protecting us from terrorism? I can't imagine a scenario existing where the tables might eventually turn & those who were once appalled & angry that the NSA was so into everything change their minds and become reassured that the gov't is actually on their game &…

[deleted]

Re: Why we can't go back to business as usual post-PRISM

#170

Post by [deleted] »

cdvonstinkpot wrote: post #64
microb wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm about to say is absolutely nuts, but it could be that this is something the NSA leaked intentionally and the media is running with it for reasons we are not aware of. Despite twitter and the like, the mainstream media is still largely in control of what occupies the "news" and therefore what the otherwise apathetic public is concerned about.

Ok, I'll bite. What sort of hypothetical could warrant such an action, intentionally leaking this story? Do they want to reassure us of their best efforts in protecting us from terrorism? I can't imagine a scenario existing where the tables might eventually turn & those who were once appalled & angry that the NSA was so into everything change their minds and become reassured that the gov't is actually on their game &…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN