Are coders worth it? • Hacker News Board

Re: Are coders worth it?

#161

Post by mercutio2 » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 4:22 PM UTC

calinet6 wrote: post #84

I think this is a good observation, that the interest in this market as a whole creates a dearth of really poor business ideas. I think this is natural. But if you're in a startup incubator especially, you have to remember that those aren't the cream of the crop. They're people who will most likely fail, and the world will be better if they do (if the world wanted their product, and they're the right ones to build it…

"Dearth" means scarcity. I had to read your post over a few times to understand that you (probably) meant an abundance of poor business ideas. An enjoyable word to use, though!

Re: Are coders worth it?

#162

Post by rocky1138 » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 4:23 PM UTC

moreoutput wrote: post #157

Two things about this article (which are really more prominent in the comments and on twitter) bother me. First, and perhaps this is because I am of lower working-class roots, whats actually wrong with being a plumber? I believe its fairly common to ask good programmers how they view the task -- generally speaking framed as a carpenter, a writer, or a mathematician. Second is the ending: "Am I paid too much to code?…

"What's actually wrong with being a plumber?"

Nothing is "wrong" with it, but the skill required to be one is much lower than it is for other vocations. This means that there are more of them and so they are lower paid. The perception in society is one that because of this they have a lower value.

From my perspective, people who choose low-skill, low-pay work aren't pushing themselves hard enough. It's great if you're good at it and you are low on money, but if it's your life goal to be a plumber you may be setting the bar too low.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#163

Post by fieryeagle » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 4:29 PM UTC

damoncali wrote: post #155

fieryeagle wrote: post #88

I stopped reading about 1/2 way into the article. Brace yourself, the rant is coming... Too many red flags springing from a delusional, narrow-minded view which looked no further than the bloated world of Valley startups. Hope mr. Author could cast his eye to some other corners of the world (no, even other parts of the States) and witness the bleak reality of a career called web development. Startups are just a small…

Go finish the article. You missed the point because you stopped half way through.

Read the whole thing and my opinion is now slightly more favourable yet I maintain my point of "see more, hear more". I get the author's standpoint yet it irks me that he seems to think the majority of web developers out there are overpaid for doing less than meaningful work. What about those who cursed the job day in day out but stuck with it for the paycheck while looking out? Do they question the same things? Yes, but getting paid this month is more important and no, other parts of the world don't usually get severance packages.

The article is someone's opinion and I'm merely expressing my own as well. Everything is debatable because the industry is so much different from one city to another, let alone countries. Unless this is entirely dedicated to one part of the States, otherwise it is good but flawed argument.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#164

Post by bennyg » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 4:29 PM UTC

sologoub wrote: post #153

This article seems to be missing a parallel that was drawn previously many times. PG has written on the subject, and so have others. The closest parallel we can draw between "coders" and the distant past, is that with the artisans of the middle ages. Aside from the landowning nobles, the artisan class was probably the closest thing to a true middle class. Many advanced to upper-middle and later became the industrial…

Sure some parts of software will become manufactured and mass produced - I mean that's the case today. How many libraries do you use?

However, software is still an intellectual, out of thin air, endeavor. It requires thought to create new and make work with existing circumstances. You aren't melting metal into a mold to make a tangible object. You are literally fusing thoughts and intellectual processes together to do it with software. Until thinking becomes mass-produced and optimized to the point of max efficiency, I don't see this happening.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#165

Post by randomdata » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 4:38 PM UTC

jezclaremurugan wrote: post #3

Not all web developers are "plumbers". If you are working on websites with heavy traffic, then you need to use complex algorithms to scale. That needs someone who is comfortable with algorithms, and that needs a quite lot of thought. The author describes simple CRUD websites and then equates all of web development to trivial tasks like that. Even scaling simple CRUD needs a lot skills, intelligence and ingenuity. And…

I'm not sure using increasingly complex algorithms makes a programmer move into some kind of new title bracket. You are still a "plumber", you just have to use more complicated distribution systems to deal with the increased building size (to stick with the analogy).

Re: Are coders worth it?

#166

Post by beat » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 4:45 PM UTC

Once you've learned a complex skill, it can seem very easy to you - and you no longer see that it's not-easy to the point of impossible for many others. Most people don't have the talent or patience to learn it at all.

Besides software, I play guitar. I've played guitar for over 30 years now. I long ago passed a level of mastery on the instrument, and my attention is focused on expression rather than technique. When working with other guitarists, it can be difficult to even comprehend that they haven't mastered their instruments technically, that things I do without thinking are hard for them to even understand, much less do. And frankly, most of them will never, ever master their instruments.

Software's the same way. It takes, at least, several years to really master it to the point where the act of coding itself no longer gets in your way and dominates your thinking, and you can focus on problems of expression rather than technique. The value of tools like Rails is that they further reduce the technical friction, getting you closer to expressiveness.

And THIS is why coders are worth it. There's work that needs to be done, work that has real market value, and a very limited number of people with the mastery needed to perform the work. And yeah, most startups are crap, but the big wins are big enough to justify risk on a bunch of small losers, so the market is there.

I just wish I could make a living as a guitarist. It's more interesting and challenging.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#167

Post by jamesaguilar » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 4:46 PM UTC

willholloway wrote: post #160

Am I the only one that wants coders to stop feeling guilty and devaluing themselves? The plumber analogy is off base. Web development is incredibly more complex than plumbing in a home. Importantly, web development changes extremely fast while plumbing is largely the same as it has been for decades. The web and the developers that have created all of the sites and apps on top of it has added tremendous value to our e…

Additionally, I'm not one to invoke the class war most of the time, but am I meant to feel bad that value is going to me rather than to suits and investors? Don't make me laugh.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#168

Post by nawitus » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 4:46 PM UTC

grey-area wrote: post #50

Wonderful writing, I loved the way it circled several times around the central issue - the value of work, and I particularly liked this conclusion - much validation and reward in our society is driven by how much people are willing to pay you for your chosen work, and it's very hard to separate your self-worth and confidence from that. It's hard to reconcile when your values don't meet those of the people around you,…

>The creative content (writing, photography, art, travel guides etc) is all in demand, but no-one wants to pay for it, perhaps because it's so easy to produce something yourself, and so hard to distinguish the fine differences in quality which separate a remarkable piece of writing or photography from the mediocre.

The real reason is not really that people don't want to pay for it, but rather it's available for free, so there's no need for most people to pay for those things. If there were no free travel guides etc., people would still pay for them.

A comparable situation is happening with newspapers. People will pay for news if they cannot get them for free. Since you can these days get news for free, a lot of people are getting rid of their newspaper subscriptions.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#169

Post by gvb » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 4:51 PM UTC

sologoub wrote: post #153

This article seems to be missing a parallel that was drawn previously many times. PG has written on the subject, and so have others. The closest parallel we can draw between "coders" and the distant past, is that with the artisans of the middle ages. Aside from the landowning nobles, the artisan class was probably the closest thing to a true middle class. Many advanced to upper-middle and later became the industrial…

We cannot put software on the kind of assembly line/stamping process we can with say door hinges or other metal works that used to require a skilled blacksmith. That doesn't mean it won't happen some day.

Stamping out software is what your Windows/OSX/linux installation CD/DVD is. Microsoft is making a lot of money stamping out (figuratively nowadays) copies of Windows.

Software engineering is the equivalent of the mechanical engineer combined with mold maker for plastic or stamped parts. There are a lot of tool and die shops around me that are making a lot of money[1] making molds.

[1] Well, they were before the auto market tanked, but they are doing OK again.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#170

Post by damoncali » Thu, Jun 06, 2013, 4:53 PM UTC

fieryeagle wrote: post #163

damoncali wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go finish the article. You missed the point because you stopped half way through.

Read the whole thing and my opinion is now slightly more favourable yet I maintain my point of "see more, hear more". I get the author's standpoint yet it irks me that he seems to think the majority of web developers out there are overpaid for doing less than meaningful work. What about those who cursed the job day in day out but stuck with it for the paycheck while looking out? Do they question the same things? Yes,…

I don't think he's suggesting they're overpaid. He's just wondering how much he's contributing to the world, despite his high pay and societal praise. If anything, I think it points out the fallacy of thinking that our pay and our personal interpretation of our "worth" are in actuality totally disconnected, although we may feel differently. He feels, I would imagine, some angst over the fact that his contribution to the world may not be worthy of the money he receives. It's an interesting point, and a tough one to wrestle with. Lots going on there.