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Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

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Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#161

Post by hackinthebochs »

fvox13 wrote: post #124

Why do so many people advocate reinventing the wheel? As far as I can tell, it wastes a LOT of time, especially in the interview process. One of the companies I interviewed with before I landed at my current job asked me to use pencil and paper to re-implement a bubble sort in Python. Why? My job is to build a house, not forge a hammer. And the fact that it was a bubble sort instead of something... better... was like…

Its a step up from Fizzbuzz, but its the same sort of test. It tests whether you have the capacity to think logically about a problem and code up a solution. The mental faculties exercised when coding bubble sort (or any of the so-called "CS puzzles") is the same sort of faculties that are required when orchestrating the various modules when generating the response to an HTTP request. This just strips all the fluff.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#162

Post by MrQuincle »

nbroyal wrote: post #16

To properly prepare for these interviews you have to invest quite a bit of time. At this point in my life (late 20s), my time is one of my most valuable resources. So, the last thing I want to do is spend that time effectively preparing for a data structures and algorithms exam. Each time I sit down to brush up on the details of Prim's algorithm or the exact implementation of quicksort, my eyes glaze over and I start…

I totally agree. I happily turn down a company that requires me to do C/C++ exams in the application process. I know my strength, which is coming up with new algorithms, or implementing them straight from a scientific paper, and most often efficiently enough to run on resource-limited robots. I know a lot of languages and technologies, which necessarily means my knowledge of those languages cannot all be in-depth. If I have to implement quicksort for a job interview I am applying for the wrong position. IMHO it's like asking a poet for the number of words (s)he can rhyme with "cat". :-)

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#163

Post by nodemaker »

nbroyal wrote: post #16

To properly prepare for these interviews you have to invest quite a bit of time. At this point in my life (late 20s), my time is one of my most valuable resources. So, the last thing I want to do is spend that time effectively preparing for a data structures and algorithms exam. Each time I sit down to brush up on the details of Prim's algorithm or the exact implementation of quicksort, my eyes glaze over and I start…

Thinking from an employer's perspective, if you cant gather up enough motivation to prepare for the interview process and solve those non-interesting problems, how will you do all the shit work that will inevitably be assigned to you when you get the job?

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#164

Post by sopooneo »

freyr wrote: post #119
Nursie wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was talking to them I was informed the hiring process usually took around 8-9 weeks. First a screening call, then a phone interview, then sometime later an in person interview, then an evaluation day in a Google building with multiple interviews and talks with various parts of various teams, then they would let you know within a couple of weeks. Yeah, no thanks.

The process may span 8 or 9 weeks, but you'd probably actively spend about 8 or 9 hours. That's a couple hours on the phone, and 5-6 hours on site. Presumably, you expect to hold the job for next few years of your life, at a minimum. If you can't budget 10 hours of your time, and you can't wait for a few weeks for an answer, it just doesn't sound like you really want to work there. Unless you're in desperate need for…

Except you're effectively budgeting ten hours divided by the probability you get hired.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#165

Post by noloqy »

kanzure wrote: post #43

Hiring is entirely broken. I don't think anyone is listening to developers. I took some data about this (tracking pixel in a Developer Auction profile), but someone did an even better job than me and posted in these comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5730843 I want a company that treats me with dignity and respect, even before and during the interviewing pipeline. How a company treats people during interv…

> How a company treats people during interviews is a huge indicator of how they treat people in general.

I fully agree. I think a possible fix is to publicly share the experiences people have when interacting with HR. If this is done centrally, perhaps the industry will take notice and improve.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#166

Post by geebee »

sandipc wrote: post #150
geebee wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think engineering is a tougher path than you do. It's as if physician had to pass a whiteboard exam on a randomly chosen topic from organic chemistry every time he or she interviewed for a new job. While I agree that the premed curriculum and med school are rigorous, attrition rates in engineering are very high. It's tough to get into med school, but it's tough to major in CS or engineering, and getting into a top…

I agree with you, but also keep in mind that leaving an engineering PhD program early ("Mastering out") still keeps your job prospects wide open. In comparison, leaving an MD program early leaves you very few options in the field, in my opinion.

Oh, looks like some research has very recently come out on this.

http://www.cgsnet.org/study-finds-completion-rates-stem-mast...

This was part of a study done by the council for graduate schools that recognized that attrition rates from MS programs were understudied compared to undergrad or PhD rates.

The full study is behind a pay wall, but still some interesting data.

STEM MS degrees appear to be completed within 4 years about 2/3 of the time - though that number drops to the low 40s within 2 years.

Unfortunately, there's only so much you can draw from this. MS programs aren't nearly as regulated as Law or Med school or PhD programs which tend to be offered only by very academically serious schools. Also, one of the big reasons for failing to finish a MS, according to the article, was work. So many students pursuing a MS are already employed in the field - something you can't do without a professional degree. Still, dropout rates were much higher than for MBA programs, so this data clearly means something.

It would be more interesting to know the attrition rates for MS students in STEM who are more like professional students at top colleges. In other words, what is the attrition rate for MS students who are enrolled full time at a top college.

Maybe these answers are behind the pay wall :(

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#167

Post by thedufer »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #67
callmeed wrote: post #9

Really good post, thanks David. I'm really curious as to how you landed an interview at Google (let alone a job) without a college degree. My understanding is they are very strict about that and it's hard to even get a foot in the door without a degree. [disclosure: I'm on a 10 year "hiatus" from my senior year in college]

I was contacted by Google without them knowing I had a degree, although they knew by the time I was scheduled for an interview. Apparently washing out in round one of Google Code Jame 2012 was enough for them to seek me out. I performed to expectation by similarly washing out of the interview. Steve Yegge wrote that you should apply to Google, no matter whether you think they'll take you or not, because it's a desira…

They don't reimburse travel expenses for interviewing? That's surprising, and a shame if its true.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#168

Post by skarmklart »

ap22213 wrote: post #100
codex wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bootcamp in the Marine Corps is an example of a tough hiring practice. Are your friends and family doctors or lawyers, per chance? Both professions use grueling hiring marathons which are much, much worse than a software engineering interview (residency and the bar exam). All other engineering professions require a rigorous licensing process, whereas software engineering is one of the cushiest jobs on the planet. In…

In a certain state of the economy, you're right. But, at least here in the US, we currently have way more demand for good developers than we have supply. Basic economics says that your model will not work. For example, the company for which I work bills me out at $250 / hr. I get something like 15-30 job requests from other companies a week. It would not make any economic sense for me to pursue any of these other com…

If they're a relatively good developer (top 25%)

How does one know that one is a top developer?

I'd imagine it's easy to have a false knowledge of being in the top 25% (what with Dunning-Krueger and all) but how does a true top 25 percenter know that he is such?

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#169

Post by thedufer »

wavesounds wrote: post #78

Off topic: I know that formula is made up but it made me think of something. How come nobody has fixed the log base 2 vs log base 10 problem of using log on the internet? Probably the CS article vs Math/Physics article is a good inclination but none the less it seems like a problem we should have solved by now.

Most of the times I've seen logs it doesn't matter, because it usually shows up in big-O. However, the only unambiguous abbreviations I've heard of are ln for log_e, log for log_10, and lg for log_2.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#170

Post by jtbigwoo »

7Figures2Commas wrote: post #39
callmeed wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems silly. If nothing else, following the advice here will help you hire better engineers for your own startup.

Really? Most true startups are in need of developers who can actually ship something of value in an efficient manner. The last thing they need is an "engineer" obsessed with algorithms and data structures who turns a practical development task into a computer science challenge.

This is applicable for big businesses, too. As a consultant my heart sinks when I open somebody else's code and see a custom-developed sorting library inside a a home-grown MVC framework.
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