Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep • Hacker News Board

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#161

Post by wutbrodo » Tue, May 14, 2013, 6:22 PM UTC

troebr wrote: post #53

jrochkind1 wrote: post #4

The guy's Scottish, he thinks it's about San Fran specifically, it's really about AMERICA. Maybe San Fran puts it even more in your face. But compared to most any other country even half as rich as America, the lack of social safety net in the U.S. is kind of shocking. People in Europe don't really realize the extent of it.

I'm French living in Jersey. I have been to San Francisco, even though it's blatant when you walk here, everywhere in the US I have that feeling that the poor are really forgotten. And they live in third-world country conditions. In France, the average rich is not as rich, and it's probably a lot harder to become successful and wealthy than here; but the poor are not left behind as much. It feels more like a society…

> America is more daring, more exciting, and there are more opportunities when you have the right cards to do something. But if you had a bad hand to start with, then you're royally screwed.

This seems a little contradictory. Being daring and exciting as a country and an economy would be more like how America used to be, where the upside of having people dying in the street was that if you came here and you had drive and talent, you were much more likely to become wealthy and successful. This is in contrast to the way much of Europe functioned at the time, where a more entrenched and institutionalized class system meant that your position in life (by and large) was set at birth.

As it stands now (I believe over the last couple of decades), America performs _worse_ than every comparable developed country but Great Britain when it comes to income mobility[1].

[1] From a study done by the London School of Economics: http://cep.lse.ac.uk/about/news/intergenerationalmobility.pd...

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#162

Post by tokenadult » Tue, May 14, 2013, 6:22 PM UTC

Places with good weather have huge visible homeless populations. (I have traveled all over the United States, and have been to all fifty states. AFTER EDIT: I have been in, and have lived in, gritty "skid row" neighborhoods of large United States cities, and have lived in Los Angeles.) Places with lousy weather, like the place where I grew up and now live, certainly have people who are "homeless" in the sense of not having a secure legal right to occupy a particular place at their own discretion, but most people with that lack of legal right to choose their living circumstances are indoors during cold winter nights. There is much provision of emergency shelter in the United States, by both governmental organizations and private charities. There are also both federal and state programs for providing free or heavily subsidized leaseholds for housing to poor families, and private charities that build single-family homes for poor families. People are more visibly out on the street in the United States mostly on a regional or seasonal basis.

Since quite a few of the comments here mention Europe, my question (as someone who has never been to any part of Europe) is where do people live in Europe if they have no personal funds to buy or rent housing? Do they live in housing operated by some unit of government, or where?

All of the above said, yes, I am not sure that United States social policy is a model for anywhere, and perhaps hackers working on social policy here would be helpful. There are already enough empty housing units in the United States to house everyone who needs a house. The tough policy issues are in allocating people to houses (or houses to people) and looking out for other aspects of everyone's welfare.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#163

Post by ims » Tue, May 14, 2013, 6:23 PM UTC

ownagefool wrote: post #123

jrochkind1 wrote: post #4

The guy's Scottish, he thinks it's about San Fran specifically, it's really about AMERICA. Maybe San Fran puts it even more in your face. But compared to most any other country even half as rich as America, the lack of social safety net in the U.S. is kind of shocking. People in Europe don't really realize the extent of it.

I'm Scottish and while I've not quite experienced it myself, I'm happy living in Europe where m taxes are spent on health care as opposed to bombs. It's not so much shocking as it is just really sad. :(

And the rest of the Western world, like it or not, is able to spend less on defense precisely because -- thanks to some unique events in the 20th century -- the US is effectively providing a defense subsidy for all of its allies.

I'm not advocating, just saying. Perhaps European countries would have to spend more if the US did not concern itself with the rest of the world? Food for thought.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#164

Post by VMG » Tue, May 14, 2013, 6:24 PM UTC

josefresco wrote: post #119

downandout wrote: post #19

This speaks to a larger problem: The world simply doesn't need many of the people born into it. Parents in the US have children for recreational purposes - child birth rates do not fluctuate with the demand for labor. These kids grow up, and many of them wind up sleeping on the streets of their chosen city or more commonly just barely living paycheck-to-paycheck, because there is no societal need for them. This bears…

"Parents in the US have children for recreational purposes" Really?!? I don't know a single parent who would list or even hint that they needed "recreation" when deciding to have a child. Let's assume you were half-joking, I still don't see having kids as something anyone takes lightly no matter what country you are born in. "child birth rates do not fluctuate with the demand for labor" Another horrible reason to hav…

> I don't know a single parent who would list or even hint that they needed "recreation" when deciding to have a child.

Your friends are not a representative sample of the population of the united states.

Those who choose to have children are responsible for providing for them, not their neighbors.

People who can't take care of their children should be discouraged from procreating: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Prevention

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#165

Post by cuppy » Tue, May 14, 2013, 6:25 PM UTC

jrochkind1 wrote: post #4

The guy's Scottish, he thinks it's about San Fran specifically, it's really about AMERICA. Maybe San Fran puts it even more in your face. But compared to most any other country even half as rich as America, the lack of social safety net in the U.S. is kind of shocking. People in Europe don't really realize the extent of it.

I live in San Diego now, but I just moved back here from San Francisco. I've lived elsewhere in America. I never felt the disparity as much as I did in SF. I walked around being intensely aware of my privilege and it was uncomfortable.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#166

Post by pessimizer » Tue, May 14, 2013, 6:29 PM UTC

aidenn0 wrote: post #122

CodeMage wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poverty on the other hand is a much, much harder problem than that. In fact, no one quite knows how to solve it in a general way (there are things that seem to work in certain contexts but not in others, many special case half-solutions). Everyone keeps saying that, as if there were only two alternatives: 1) completely fix poverty in a general way or 2) keep the status quo (and allow it to get worse). There has to be…

There is nothing intrinsically morally wrong with high levels of wealth inequality. If wealth distribution were to stay as unequal as they are now, but total per-capita wealth increased at a steady rate, that would be a wonderful outcome for everyone. The issue is that the high levels of wealth inequality are used to capture nearly all of the wealth that is created, thus increasing the wealth inequality even more. Th…

>There is nothing intrinsically morally wrong with high levels of wealth inequality.

That would depend on your moral system, wouldn't it?

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#167

Post by [deleted] » Tue, May 14, 2013, 6:31 PM UTC

reinhardt wrote: post #159

downandout wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I say "recreational" I mean that there is no need for parents to have children, other than the fact that they are biologically motivated to. We have more people than resources in this world. That is a problem, and the only way to fix it is to encourage people to be realistic about the potential for their children to have happy, productive lives in a society that almost certainly has no use for them.

Overpopulation is a myth. Actually in the first world underpopulation is greater risk, most European countries have a lower fertility rate than the 2.1 children replacement rate. Even at a global level the world population will reach a plateau somewhere around the middle of the century.

[deleted]

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#168

Post by gcheong » Tue, May 14, 2013, 6:31 PM UTC

pi18n wrote: post #112

downandout wrote: post #19

This speaks to a larger problem: The world simply doesn't need many of the people born into it. Parents in the US have children for recreational purposes - child birth rates do not fluctuate with the demand for labor. These kids grow up, and many of them wind up sleeping on the streets of their chosen city or more commonly just barely living paycheck-to-paycheck, because there is no societal need for them. This bears…

You are probably right that impoverished parents are going to have a hard time raising children, but you are also advocating a form of social Darwinism. I agree that fewer people should procreate but disagree with measuring the necessity of a person by net worth. The vast majority of wealth being accumulated by a few persons surely skews the demand for labor as we have many Fords but not many laborers paid enough to…

People like me who have no desire to have them perhaps? I think that's the best place to start. Also more people will probably choose not to have kids when there is more social acceptance of the choice and we are honest with ourselves about the realities of bringing more human life into this world. I like kids and want every measure of support we can provide to people who have chosen to have them - we just need to be clear on the realities and I think much of the rest will take care of itself.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#169

Post by rmrfrmrf » Tue, May 14, 2013, 6:31 PM UTC

MarkPNeyer wrote: post #84

i worked at uber and twilio in the city. I was so bothered by the homeless people I saw everyday that it seriously impeded my work performance. i'd walk by them and feel terrible for not being able to help, for having an easy time making money, and feel afraid that my bipolar disorder would get worse and i'd end up like them. it was hard to function properly at work when I'd start my day feeling guilty, powerless and…

What do you mean by not being able to help? I really encourage you to volunteer at a shelter if you haven't. Not only will you feel amazing by doing it, but you'll also hear so many good life stories, which I think will help you get over your phobias of the homeless. We tend to make up stories in our head to prop up our own just-world hypotheses, but the reality is that there are a lot reasons why people are homeless.

Sure, you'll hear from the guy who got hooked on drugs and pissed away his money, but you'll also hear about people who had work in construction and industry whose jobs dried up during one of many economic downturns while at the same time dealing with rising rent costs. Getting back into the game isn't easy either without clean clothes, a place to shower, or even a phone to be reached at for an interview. A lot of what we take for granted (like wearing $300-1500 outfits for interviews) simply isn't available to homeless people.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#170

Post by btilly » Tue, May 14, 2013, 6:32 PM UTC

beat wrote: post #49

regis wrote: post #44

One thing that I think is missing from these discussions about the homeless in SF is: many of these people do not want to be rent-paying members of society and even if there was housing for them, some might still prefer their current lifestyle. Many people still view that lifestyle choice as unacceptable because it challenges the typical goals of someone working hard for a 'better' life. I don't think the question sh…

I don't think anyone actually PREFERS to be homeless, except for a few exotics. Most of the homeless in America are that way due to either a: unfortunate economic circumstances, or b: mental illness that precludes normal social functioning.

About 20 years ago I ran across a study of homeless people in NYC. It turned out that a lot had lead comfortable middle class lives, and like most of us with the resources to handle one economic setback. Then two things went wrong. The first drained their reserves, the second put them on the street.

A particularly common combination was a health problem followed by foreclosure.

It has been 20 years, but I have seen no reason to doubt that the same pattern would be largely true today.