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$10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

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Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#161

Post by MartinCron »

WayneDB wrote: post #158
MartinCron wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other thing passes within a few moments Sure that one particular flurry of dick jokes passed in a few moments. Pervasive juvenile humor is part of a culture and environment that is hostile and alienating to so many. If you don't find that environment hostile and alienating, good for you! Not everyone is going to be exactly like you. Seriously, if childish little jokes are so damn important, they can wait until th…

I'm not so sure that the ultra-politically-correct environment that you're hoping for is going to solve your problem . Not everyone is going to be exactly like you. I'm feeling smothered just thinking about it. Seriously, if you think dick jokes are childish consider how much adult money they've made for adult comedians making adults laugh. Sure, you can censor people - but by the time you succeed in building your dr…

You're misunderstanding me. I'm not advocating that everyone be exactly like me. I'm advocating professional conduct in professional contexts.

My dream environment is one where everyone is aware enough to know that immature dick jokes might not be a welcome contribution to everyone within earshot. The same way that most people just know that cigarette smoke isn't a welcome contribution to everyone sharing the same air.

Be as edgy and imaginative and courageous as you want, on your own time. Thanks.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#162

Post by WayneDB »

MartinCron wrote: post #140
rrouse wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing affects the long term health of others around you. The other thing passes within a few moments. They are not comparable.

The other thing passes within a few moments Sure that one particular flurry of dick jokes passed in a few moments. Pervasive juvenile humor is part of a culture and environment that is hostile and alienating to so many. If you don't find that environment hostile and alienating, good for you! Not everyone is going to be exactly like you. Seriously, if childish little jokes are so damn important, they can wait until th…

(nesting maximum reached)

I don't think I'm misunderstanding you at all. You said that "juvenile" humor is pervasive. Wouldn't that indicate that the general consensus is that this type of humor is OK?

Let's get it straight - the (very small) minority here want to make the environment more comfortable for themselves.

(Also, nobody has ever explained to me why a joke or even a conversation about this one particular body part qualifies as "juvenile".)

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#163

Post by pifflesnort »

king_jester wrote: post #154
pifflesnort wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm curious as to why you believe microaggression is being misused here You're using it to create a false equivalence between immature jokes and sexual/racial violence, and having done that, are using racial/sexual violence as an appeal to emotion and morality. Having done that, you're using that appeal to rationalize Adria's disproportionate response and overstate the severity of the offense, manufacturing a reali…

> You're using it to create a false equivalence between immature jokes and sexual/racial violence I've provided some context for why there is a link (not equality) between the two. Why is this a false equivalence or link? > and having done that, are using racial/sexual violence as an appeal to emotion and morality. I don't really think I understand this either. Microaggressions and the broader fabric of sexism are li…

This is a lot of rationalization to essentially say "I think that public shaming is acceptable behavior".

That wall of text is required because the simple truth is unpalatable to most observers. Instead, you must engage in an exceptional rhetorical dance to draw a parellel (not equate, as you say, despite the fact that you then use rhetoric to draw an equivalence, and use that equavalence to justify behavior) between sophomoric jokes and very serious topics like racial and sexual violence.

From that position, you can then justify almost any of Adria's actions, since she was facing systemic sexual and racial violence due to an overhead 'dongle' joke.

Where does personal responsibility, proportion, professionalism, and consequences factor in to your worldview? After all, there may be systemic "microaggressions" as you state, but would you claim that someone reacting disproportionally to them should be absolved of the professional responsibilities to which they committed themselves?

How far does your logic of transference extend? This appears to be an application of homeopathy to personal responsibility, where some root justification, no matter how diluted by reality, can provide justification for inappropriate reaction to a perceived or actual offense.

To approach some individual points:

> Twitter and blogging are totally available to the gentlemen in question. Public shaming is not mob justice.

I don't expect that they have 10k followers, and even if they did, responding would not be likely to improve the eventual outcome for any involved.

Some things, once said, can not be unsaid or countered. Negative public discourse is a tar baby, and the internet has a permanent memory.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#164

Post by MartinCron »

WayneDB wrote: post #162
MartinCron wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other thing passes within a few moments Sure that one particular flurry of dick jokes passed in a few moments. Pervasive juvenile humor is part of a culture and environment that is hostile and alienating to so many. If you don't find that environment hostile and alienating, good for you! Not everyone is going to be exactly like you. Seriously, if childish little jokes are so damn important, they can wait until th…

(nesting maximum reached) I don't think I'm misunderstanding you at all. You said that "juvenile" humor is pervasive. Wouldn't that indicate that the general consensus is that this type of humor is OK? Let's get it straight - the (very small) minority here want to make the environment more comfortable for themselves. (Also, nobody has ever explained to me why a joke or even a conversation about this one particular bo…

Also, nobody has ever explained to me why a joke or even a conversation about this one particular body part qualifies as "juvenile"

Here you go:

Not all jokes or conversations about one particular body part are juvenile. The one in question was. I don't think any reasonable person would dispute that, even the guy who unfortunately lost his job over it. He's not exactly standing behind his joke as the pinnacle of human creativity and expressiveness.

If your senses of decorum and humor have not yet matured to the point where you can tell juvenile and inappropriate behavior from the sort of thing that is OK in a professional context like an office or a convention hall, I legitimately feel sorry for you. It must be very difficult to go through life like that.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#165

Post by doktrin »

steveklabnik wrote: post #156
doktrin wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "mysogynists tireless efforts to terrorize women in tech" Crazed hysterics are not necessary and accomplish nothing constructive. There are far too many ideologues on both sides of this discussion poisoning the well for the rest of us.

You do know that 'hysterics' is specifically a reference to women being irrational, correct? Using a gendered insult isn't really helping your cause, there.

Nit picking at the ancient greek etymology of a word I happened to use illustrates precisely how this discussion has jumped the shark.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#166

Post by andrewdupont »

overgryphon wrote: post #157
RyanMcGreal wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a freaking rhetorical device to point out that every single time a woman speaks up about inappropriate behaviour, she ends up paying a terrible price in harassment, abuse, threats, and hatred. It is theoretically possible to have a civil discussion about whether Richards went about reporting the inappropriate behaviour in the right way (and it is 100% clear that the PyCon organizers agreed the behaviour was…

I am a woman, and I work in software development, so I'm assuming I fit in your group called "women in tech". I have no idea what insults, abuse, threats, contempt, ridicule, disdain, and disregard I apparently have been routinely facing. If "women in tech" did suffer so severely on a daily basis, it would not be relevant to Richards. Her job description seems to be "Developer Evangelist". I'm not sure what that spec…

> "It is unfortunate that Richards received the huge storms of abuse that she did. But she chose to handle the situation in a way that invited that abuse, when there were clear ways to "speak up" that would not have resulted in such abuse."

This reasoning bothers me.

Let's stipulate that Adria's post to Twitter was a mistake. You seem to say that the abuse is her fault, because if she hadn't made that mistake, she wouldn't have received any abuse.

But shouldn't punishments be proportional to crimes? We all seem to agree that it's barbaric to cut off a shoplifter's hand, or to hand out the death penalty for petty crimes (as was once common in England, for instance).

People say this sort of thing all the time — "If you didn't want Y, you shouldn't have done X." I feel like it shuts down the conversation. Yes, X was wrong, but Y was also wrong, and it's ridiculous that something as wrong as Y resulted from X. That's a discussion worth having.

The point is that nobody deserves death threats. It need not feel like a defense of Adria Richards to say that.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#167

Post by steveklabnik »

doktrin wrote: post #165
steveklabnik wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do know that 'hysterics' is specifically a reference to women being irrational, correct? Using a gendered insult isn't really helping your cause, there.

Nit picking at the ancient greek etymology of a word I happened to use illustrates precisely how this discussion has jumped the shark.

It's not Ancient Greek. The explicit usage is And it's only not explicit now because it was so acceptable that people don't immediately recall the gender.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#168

Post by monksy »

king_jester wrote: post #95
doktrin wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a one sided over-simplification of what actually took place.

How so? We know women as a group have a hard time accessing and existing in tech spaces already for a variety of reasons, so why wouldn't some of the reaction that was misogynistic be a deterrent?

> We know women as a group have a hard time accessing and existing in tech spaces

I find it rather funny to read that. There are no physical barriers for working in tech or learning. It's all based on the individual's motivation to learn and do.

Maybe it's just me but from the most of the "harassment" I see is from socially-awkward individuals that have a difficult time communicating what they're interested in. There's nothing wrong with a geek-guy flirting with a geek-girl, its just how its done. Tech tends to avoid socialization which makes this issue worse. Most guys are more than willing to help someone else in need, especially a woman.

EDIT: Moving the goal posts everytime is what keeps this a "problem." You can't keep claiming that tech is "unfriendly to women" when there have been women ceos, women in the work place, women-only tech organizations, and ridicious "women coding camps."

But hey those are my 2c.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#169

Post by overgryphon »

andrewdupont wrote: post #166
overgryphon wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a woman, and I work in software development, so I'm assuming I fit in your group called "women in tech". I have no idea what insults, abuse, threats, contempt, ridicule, disdain, and disregard I apparently have been routinely facing. If "women in tech" did suffer so severely on a daily basis, it would not be relevant to Richards. Her job description seems to be "Developer Evangelist". I'm not sure what that spec…

> "It is unfortunate that Richards received the huge storms of abuse that she did. But she chose to handle the situation in a way that invited that abuse, when there were clear ways to "speak up" that would not have resulted in such abuse." This reasoning bothers me. Let's stipulate that Adria's post to Twitter was a mistake. You seem to say that the abuse is her fault, because if she hadn't made that mistake, she wo…

Nobody deserves death threats. But that issue has nothing to do with PyCon, women in tech, or software development.

It is simply current reality that whenever anyone posts things online, other people are able to respond by anonymously sending death threats. The fact that there are people who choose to do so sucks, and is a problem, but this is a well-known fact. You, right now, could click reply on my comment and send me a death threat. I would have no recourse.

Richards knew that people who didn't like what she posted publicly may respond in that manner, and she decided to take that risk when she posted a photo of other developers to twitter. If she did not want to deal with anonymous death threats, she could (and did) handle the situation in a less public manner. She chose to make the situation public.

The developers she posted a picture of had no way of consenting to that publicity.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#170

Post by wpietri »

obstacle1 wrote: post #150
RyanMcGreal wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the previous controversy had no real winners Sadly, I have to disagree. The hordes of abusive misogynists scored a big victory in their tireless efforts to terrorize and deter women from working in tech or, indeed, speaking publicly at all.

Which misogynists? The ones who made threatening/abusive comments on Twitter? Or are you calling anyone who disagrees with Richards's handling of this situation a misogynist? If the former, don't worry. Those people don't represent the tech community, they are kids who hang out on imageboards and spread hate. To everyone. Including men. Do I need to provide some examples of /b/ tarring and feathering male victims on…

I'm going to keep worrying.

I agree that those people don't represent the tech community. On the other hand, their behavior has caused legitimate fear among women in tech about speaking up. And it's not like the tech community rose up as one against the hatemongers: there was a lot of quiet and not-so-quiet support for how things turned out. There was plenty of aggressive examination of what Adria Richards did, with a lot less focus on anybody else, or on anything that led up to what she did.

So I believe that Ryan McGreal is right in saying the misogynists had a victory. A partial one, though; good things have come out of it as well.

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