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Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

code.org

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Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#161
post #14

Where's the group pushing "everyone should learn to": be an accountant, doctor, engineer, electrician or a plumber. And on and on and on. Not everyone needs to learn to code. I agree that exposure to it and a basic understanding of it is good, just like other disciplines. But this is already happening! I learnt LOGO in primary school and then mindstorms, VB and HTML in high school. And so did everyone else, they were…

Accountant/engineers/electricians: Maths Doctors: Biology Chemists: Chemistry Programmer: Erm... ICT where you can learn how to use word and publisher.

It's just not the same. There is no base subject to springboard into the rest of the subject like other subjects do.

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#162
post #73

Hear me out. I was full for this 'teach kids how to code' thingy. But I think we have got this all wrong. Heck we don't have the right kind of tools to teach kids how to code. In fact I have now realized that you can't and should not teach kids how to code. You rather must teach them how to solve problems. Math was supposed to deal with that, but unfortunately that turned out to be complicated symbol manipulation if…

> My niece here in India is around 12 years old, and she is being taught C programming back in school(She is in 8th standard, or 8th grade as per US terms).

I have been in those Indian schools, and it's not what you think at all.

Did you check the portion/syllabus that is to be covered in 8th standard?

In my experience (7 - 8 years ago): Max they'd go is loops, preprocessing directives. I doubt they'd even write a function (not complex ones that return stuff anyway, forget call-by-value, call-by-reference)

> And oh, by the way. Next year they are about to be taught Java. I can only imagine the horror, the way kids of going to deal with the text walls full of verbosity, API dance and the XML mess. And the last time I heard they don't really use IDE's.

Teachers here are fans of "do it in text editor, so that you don't have autocomplete to guide you" (where normally text editor is Notepad (Windows)). I can assure you they aren't going to deal with anything like APIs, XML.

Java courses in India are a lot like "Rewriting this piece of code we wrote in C++ last sem in Java".

Also, computers in schools (state boards at least) are not a marking subject where you score out of 100 or 50. It's a graded subject (falls in the domain of physical education, crafts: generally ignored academically).

Indian education system has bigger problems anyway. Be assured this course is not what these guys at code.org are talking about.

EDIT: I am not being negative, but you'd rather take opinions of a person schooled in India (Mumbai, not Delhi, but more-or-less the same thing leaving out subtle differences) than an uncle of a student who only knows the name of the subject (analogous to courses in college).

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's Java. Also, significant whitespace is a pain in the ass.

It seems to be JavaScript, not Java. Semi-colons are great for real programming. They help deal with ambiguity when you want to split something over several lines yadda yadda let's not have the debate here. But I don't see it's utility in something like this. It becomes one of those "just because" answers if someone asks why you need to put a semi-colon at the end of the line. I could understand it if it was pitched…

It looks like there are many, many implementations of Karel the Robot.

I first saw Karel watching the Engineering Anywhere CS106a videos provided by Stanford. That course was in Java but used Karel at the beginning to get students used to writing programs, in this case instructions to the robot. If things like why ; and what is this `public void` had to be introduced before the groundwork for understanding what they were doing, it was done with a 'do this and we'll be able to explain why shortly.' Which to me, is a perfectly valid way of introducing things.

Because the Karel implementation there was Java, controlling the robot was just Java. You learned Java syntax as you played in the sandbox. You used that syntax as you moved out of the sandbox.

FYI the semi-colon at then end of the lines, if I remember correctly, was explained with this is how you tell the computer in this language we're done with a statement. No different then us using periods in English at the end of a sentence, its just the rules of this language.

As an aside, I really liked the Stanford CS106a course videos. I think the instructor did a very good job introducing Java and programing in general.

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks OK to me using Firefox and Chrome on Ubuntu.

I tried in Chromium on Ubuntu, and Firefox and IE on Windows. It looks trainwreck-y on all of them for me. By the process of elimination, I believe it's because I'm using a T-mobile wireless dongle. The upstream proxy attempts to reduce bandwidth by doing things like coalescing external CSS and JS inline. I've seen this break one other site (LinkedIn profile editing, which seemed to be a bit fast and loose about its…

Thanks for the feedback. These are all things on our to-do list.

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#165
post #101
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a similar background, with my earliest programming experience in Logo, drawing fun shapes. I then got into PC games, dealing with batch files, config.sys, and HIMEM to extract extra KBs of conventional memory. I got back into programming when a friend and I built a flash card program to help us study vocabulary and memorize Chemistry equations. Programming is fun when it has a purpose!

> When it has a purpose I think this is the real key. It's one thing to teach kids programming, but you cannot teach them why its useful in the same way many engineers discovered why it was useful.

I cannot agree more. Too many students find the subjects they are studying "pointless." Who will take the time to learn something they think (quite possibly rightfully so) is pointless.

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#166

Still with the learn to code meme? In addition to all the reasons that @codinghorror raises in http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/05/please-dont-learn-t... , I have a one more to add. The altruism of it all stinks. The meme is being pushed by parties (non-profit or not) looking to gain from teaching people to program (after convincing them that they absolutely should). While it's true that learning to code is bene…

I wonder if children will watch this video and think that if they learn to code, then they'll get to work in swanky offices with free salad and skateboards...

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#167
post #104
post #73

Hear me out. I was full for this 'teach kids how to code' thingy. But I think we have got this all wrong. Heck we don't have the right kind of tools to teach kids how to code. In fact I have now realized that you can't and should not teach kids how to code. You rather must teach them how to solve problems. Math was supposed to deal with that, but unfortunately that turned out to be complicated symbol manipulation if…

You make a lot of assumptions about how kids have to be taught coding. > I tried everything possible. Every other trick in the trade. Even tried to start with Python first and not C. > They struggle to understand where or why should you use an if/else/switch statement, or a for/do/while loop. Its difficult for them to map solution patterns to a code pattern. Its not their fault. Its ours. Better luck trying to explai…

I have a hard time understanding why on earth anyone would have semicolons and parentheses in a programming language for kids!

A comma, instead of a semicolon, would be much more natural for kids imo and the parentheses are just there to confuse it seems.

Just keep it as simple as possible and have the syntax as close to natural language "rules" as possible then kids might start to understand things better.

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#169
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a lot of assumptions about how kids have to be taught coding. > I tried everything possible. Every other trick in the trade. Even tried to start with Python first and not C. > They struggle to understand where or why should you use an if/else/switch statement, or a for/do/while loop. Its difficult for them to map solution patterns to a code pattern. Its not their fault. Its ours. Better luck trying to explai…

I think both you and the grandparent are making a mistake. He assumes children dislike math. You assume children will like karel. I think the truth is that children have different interests and that you can only bring them to programming by latching on to those interests. Many children like math. Many other children will not like karel. The result: to engage as many children as possible, you need several introductory…

It's dated, slow, ugly, and poorly-supported, but in my experience, Alice is the easiest introduction and call to action for a 7-10th grade proto-programmer.

You create 3d animations using an OO syntax. Like Karel, you build up from basic methods, but you get to animate a scene, rather than have a robot/dog pick up and drop stuff.

My students have really enjoyed it, and it let me get to deeper concepts far faster than other instruction.

edit: http://www.alice.org and it looks like development has actually woken up. The blog is active and there's a new version out. Big improvement over last year when I went there.

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#170
An old math teacher friend of mine has introduced his 7th grade students to "programming" through Lego Mindstorms. The kids work in teams to build the robots from kits and then program them to navigate a maze/obstacle course using Lego's software. I don't think its that close to "real" programming, but it does get the kids thinking about how to break down problems into logical steps. And it's enough like play that pretty much everyone gets into it, and the ubernerds in the group race to see who can finish the course in the best time.

I'd like to see more things like this happen in schools, but it's hard to find the time and money for ~10 mindstorms kits in every classroom.

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