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Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

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Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#161

Post by helmut_hed »

Udo wrote: post #143
danso wrote: post #72

This whole controversy has been a little depressing to read...not that the Tesla vs. NYT discussions here have been worse than on other forums, but just because it shows how technical minded people are as easily swayed by preconceptions and alliances as more ostensibly non-scientific minds. How many words have been expended in the other HN thread to allege that Broder -- after most have already established that he is…

I didn't want to take sides either way, because it's obvious that Broder's and Musk's interests are diametrically opposed and so both viewpoints need to be taken with a huge grain of salt. However, after reading this article it's clear to me that the data shows Broder flat-out lied about several things (like turning down the heat or setting cruise control to 54 MPH). He also clearly did not just use one of myriad cha…

Both of those assertions are semi-true, at least - It looks like he averaged around 54mph between 400 and 460 miles. He also turned down the heat as claimed, but not when he stated - roughly between 250 and 300 miles. I'm willing to chalk that up to poor note-taking.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#162

Post by specialist »

slantyyz wrote: post #140
specialist wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who's tried, with varied success, to work with reporters on technical stuff, I don't subscribe to "the somewhere in the middle" view. To us geeks, often, stuff is either true or not true, with no room for maybe. To reporters, they're both trying to understand what's happening without direct knowledge as well as convey that in a way a layperson can understand. Unfortunately, in that game of telephone, a lot…

>> What's great (rare) about this story is there's published data I've only seen precompiled analyses, including the charts and graphs from Tesla's blog. There is no real data per se - Wired requested the raw logs several times and have been declined by Tesla ( http://www.wired.com/autopia/2013/02/tesla-logs-nytimes/ - last sentence). And I don't get how there's this perception here on HN that Tesla's data is ironcla…

Sorry, I assumed the logged data was public information. My bad.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#163

Post by btilly »

DanBC wrote: post #22

> Musk accuses Broder of thinking "the facts shouldn’t get in the way of a salacious story" (which is an odd choice of adjective for a car review) The story was "Electric cars suck". Broder is well known for having anti-electric car opinions, so it's not surprising that he would want to write a negative review. Argument 1: The length of the detour is not as important as the type of driving during that detour. Argumen…

All it takes is one person to drive the same journey, but with proper charging, and to release the logs to disprove Broder's points.

Key point that you need to add. They need to do it in the same weather.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#164

Post by mieubrisse »

danso wrote: post #127
halviti wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read all the arguments on both sides, and while both have made good points, there is one that stands out. This reporter clearly barely made any attempt at recharging his empty vehicle in Norwich, and then attempted a drive well beyond the car's capabilities, then made the "running out of fuel" his headline. If he would have done this on gasoline, the result would have been the same, and I think that is getting l…

Just for reference's sake: > After making arrangements to recharge at the Norwich station, I located the proper adapter in the trunk, plugged in and walked to the only warm place nearby, Butch’s Luncheonette and Breakfast Club, an establishment (smoking allowed) where only members can buy a cup of coffee or a plate of eggs. But the owners let me wait there while the Model S drank its juice. Tesla’s experts said that…

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that people need to put a little more thought into a car that's fundamentally different than standard cars today.

Your last paragraph is making a bad comparison to try and put down this point: a laptop operates off of all one reservoir, while the current ICE car uses gas to drive and a battery to operate the "other stuff". We watch the gas gauge and see that it drops in a direct correlation with our driving and for the most part ignore the battery charge gauge.

When an EV starts pulling both driving and "other stuff" power from the same reservoir, we're surprised because we weren't aware before of the usage of the other things. Thus, a bit more mind needs to be paid to aspects that we didn't care about before. Though it's not the best comparison either, travelers switching from horses to cars had to start thinking about things like fuel reservoirs; it can just be the nature of disruptive advances.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#165

Post by helmut_hed »

danso wrote: post #72

This whole controversy has been a little depressing to read...not that the Tesla vs. NYT discussions here have been worse than on other forums, but just because it shows how technical minded people are as easily swayed by preconceptions and alliances as more ostensibly non-scientific minds. How many words have been expended in the other HN thread to allege that Broder -- after most have already established that he is…

This. I wonder how much of the controversy comes down to left vs. right brain, East vs. West Coast, liberal arts vs. engineering discipline thinking. Are we just siding with our "team" here?

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#166

Post by therandomguy »

fleitz wrote: post #33
gfodor wrote: post #21

I guess it's time to muddy the waters. The truth is in the middle! Of course, the entire debacle can be summed up with the following exchange: Q: "How many miles did you have left to drive on the final leg?" Broder: "61" Q: "And how many miles did your car tell you that you could travel before recharging?" Broder: "32" Of course, Broder claims that Tesla told him it was OK to leave. I think this is bullshit, but will…

I'll second this... If he was in death valley, or the arctic with no cell reception, and it was 61 miles to the next station and the car said 32 no sane person would ever begin that journey.

The point being, he was not.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#168

Post by stcredzero »

slantyyz wrote: post #145
stcredzero wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing wrong with replication, it’s just that it’s wholly unable to clear anything up in this case. Sorry, but not only John Broder's intentions are in question here. If a bunch of other journalists replicate the trip, but come out with results more in line with Tesla's view, then this calls into question Broder's accuracy, intent or no. You know, there's an empirical context underlying everything here.

>> If a bunch of other journalists replicate the trip Is it really a replicable test? They'd need the same weather patterns, traffic conditions and the same car (untweaked or modified since Broder's drive), not a different, "equivalently equipped" model. In the documentary Revenge of the Electric car, there's a scene where Musk walks into a warehouse full of cars, all having different issues preventing shipment. For…

> Is it really a replicable test?

Yes.

> They'd need the same weather patterns, traffic conditions

Okay.

> and the same car

Find an honest 3rd party who already owns the same model.

> not a different, "equivalently equipped" model.

Now you're just being obtuse. Consumer Reports gets to test a car that's the same model. They're not required to come to your house and test your car!

> In the documentary Revenge of the Electric car, there's a scene where Musk walks into a warehouse full of cars, all having different issues preventing shipment.

That's a completely different car! They were taking Lotus bodies and fitting them out with batteries and motors, somewhat by hand. This one is built on a bona-fide assembly line and designed to be electric from the ground-up. Sorry, but this is a huge stretch.

> For all we know, there was a problem isolated to the particular car Broder drove AND, at the same time, Broder was embellishing his story. In other words, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

I'm sorry, but this tactic of thinking of all the confounding things you can, then throwing up your hands and saying "middle!" is the sort of thinking you expect on Fox News or on the playground. If replicability can't settle such debates, then science is in deep doodoo. However, we know from the history of science that it can settle debates 10X more acrimonious than this.

To be fair, you are right that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Exactly where is important and something we can get a good locality of through replicating.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#169

Post by MiguelHudnandez »

salimmadjd wrote: post #25
Kylekramer wrote: post #10

Article makes a few good points. There has been a lot of "Hurry for data! Boo journalists! Off with the oil shill Broder's head" talk here and elsewhere, but Tesla's data seems too far from an ironclad refutation of the article. The supposed circling would have lasted less than five minutes at 10-15 mph. It is a strictly subjective "he said, she said" situation about whether Tesla did tell Broder that he was good to…

Exactly! Musk is trying to get ahead if this story and he is using some well established tactics here, http://photojournalist.quora.com/Ironically-Musk-Tapped-The-...

That is a good point, except he followed up with tangible details relatively quickly. It took a few days for his technies to compile the blog post, but Tesla did provide the data--it's not doubt for doubt's sake. Now that the data is out there, we see the picture is not as clear as either side wants it to be. In hindsight, that's the obvious conclusion.

I wish that Broder had been running a few cameras in the car during the whole trip. Then we could have some data to compare against Tesla's. For example, we could correlate the readings from the car's speedometer with video evidence from which we could calculate speed.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#170

Post by slantyyz »

stcredzero wrote: post #168
slantyyz wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> If a bunch of other journalists replicate the trip Is it really a replicable test? They'd need the same weather patterns, traffic conditions and the same car (untweaked or modified since Broder's drive), not a different, "equivalently equipped" model. In the documentary Revenge of the Electric car, there's a scene where Musk walks into a warehouse full of cars, all having different issues preventing shipment. For…

> Is it really a replicable test? Yes. > They'd need the same weather patterns, traffic conditions Okay. > and the same car Find an honest 3rd party who already owns the same model. > not a different, "equivalently equipped" model. Now you're just being obtuse. Consumer Reports gets to test a car that's the same model. They're not required to come to your house and test your car ! > In the documentary Revenge of the…

>> Sorry, but this is a huge stretch.

Why? Even individual cars produced in assembly lines can have problems.

When I worked at Toyota, there was a problem with a Lexus model that was so hard to isolate. Eventually, after a long data collection period, they found that the problem was only existent in cars painted in a certain color.

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