Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's true, it's the flexibility to work exactly as much as you want--even if it's zero hours a year. In my own financial calculations, I also assume that I start collecting social security benefits when I turn 67. A lot of people consider that naive ("SS is going bankrupt!"), but I don't. So that'll be either a raise for my retirement income or at least a cushion to soften the losses I may have taken in the market…
I'm a big fan of MMM, but I'm also not from the US. From an external point of view, making any assumptions about United States pensions far in the future seems like a bad idea. The United States can barely pay interest on its foreign debt (debt ceiling/fiscal cliff debate), how do you expect it will be able to honor its national debt obligations without resorting to inflation?
The Simple Math Behind Early Retirement
161–170 of 246 posts
Re: The Simple Math Behind Early Retirement
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
Where can you buy a house for $5000 that pays out $500/month in rent?
You can actually get them for even less than that and get more in rent. The cheapest way is through Tax Sales. You can buy a 3 bedroom house at a Tax Sale for low thousands of dollars and rent them out Section 8 for $800/mo or more and the US Government pays you all or a portion of the rent so it's reliable residual. Of course it isn't that simple, sometimes the houses need a lot of work to get rent-ready and if you…
Re: The Simple Math Behind Early Retirement
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
>> But simply cutting cable TV and a few lattes would instantly boost their savings to 15%, allowing them to retire 8 years earlier!! Are cable TV and Starbucks worth having two income earners each work an extra eight years for??? > Again, mathematically accurate, but not helpful Is extremely helpful to those that have the willpower and motivation for early retirement. I personally think about this kind of tradeoff/d…
Are you serious you don't have a cellphone? Just curious, what do you work in, and how much do you manage to save each month?
I'm a Software Engineer, and I save towards 70% of my paycheck. I still bought a new laptop, DSLR, rifle and other toys all in the last 6 months. I don't earn tons for a SE, if that's what you're thinking.
It lets me do things like Drive from Alaska to Argentina for two years, simply because I wanted to[1]
[1] theroadchoseme.com
Re: The Simple Math Behind Early Retirement
#164Are cable TV and Starbucks worth having two income earners each work an extra eight years for??? Well, of course they are, for your values of "cable TV" and "Starbucks". Here's a thought. Move to the Midwest. Get a couple roommates and eat simple foods. Never eat out and don't own a car. And don't buy anything else. You could survive on less than five grand a year with that lifestyle. I'm sure a lot of HNers already…
Five grand a year is probably too extreme, that's less than $15/day. But $15k/year is definitely doable with a $400K nest egg. 16 million households in the U.S. survive on less than that and most of them have to work to do so.
The example was meant to be extreme and you can adjust the dials a bit without missing my point, which is that of course it's easy to retire if you remove the requirement that you might want to buy stuff.
Re: The Simple Math Behind Early Retirement
#165Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you serious you don't have a cellphone? Just curious, what do you work in, and how much do you manage to save each month?
Yep. No TV, No cell phone, a 25 year old car and I've never been happier. I'm a Software Engineer, and I save towards 70% of my paycheck. I still bought a new laptop, DSLR, rifle and other toys all in the last 6 months. I don't earn tons for a SE, if that's what you're thinking. It lets me do things like Drive from Alaska to Argentina for two years, simply because I wanted to[1] [1] theroadchoseme.com
Re: The Simple Math Behind Early Retirement
#166Calling out young professionals for $4 coffees is not only an act devoid of human understanding, it seems to be ignoring that many young professionals can only maintain their higher pay/higher stress jobs because small treats keep them energized and sane. And maintaining those careers, even with such expenditures, makes higher total savings possible. [2]
Similarly the article gives short-shrift to retirement lifestyle. It concedes, in passing, that lifestyle at retirement is fixed based on prior working wages. (By admitting that you need to maintain the lifestyle inherent in your savings rate even after you retire).
But it doesn't spend any time talking about the human implications of that.
Most people would look at a $10/hr-and-saving-nearly-every-penny lifestyle and say "this is not retirement. even if i can maintain this lifestyle after only 10 years of work". They see it as scrimping and saving and deferring joy so that they can ... continue scrimping and saving? [3]
Facing such a situation most would opt to continue working, earning promotions, adding to their nest egg and disposable income level, rendering that "achievement" of early retirement as academic-at-best but utterly irrelevant to their actual life.
This is all why sensible retirement planning starts from defining the desired retirement lifestyle and working backwards from there -- accounting for likely wage increases, the declining impact of necessary spending as wages increase, allowing for reasonable levels of luxury spending [4] and accounting for planned life changes, like a house, spouse and children.
Even in the "early retirement" fantasy that hinges on the notion that after retirement you would simply 'work for yourself' or pursue some creative or personal dreams, the costs implicit in pursuing said endeavors need to be calculated into retirement lifestyle to determine an actual retirement age and thus savings rate.
This is particularly necessary when you're pitching the idea of pursuing those things only at retirement, by deferring any and all possible costs in the pursuit of some maximal savings rate. [5]
Most people typically say something like "I'd like to retire and travel and paint". They'll then do things as crazy as including costs related to preparing for years of travel and learning to paint during their working years so they'll actually be ready for their 'retirement' (also: so that they'll actually know whether or not they'd actually enjoy traveling and painting).
At which point the "live more frugally and retire earlier" approach is, again, revealed to be irrelevant for most, as those preparatory and exploratory costs push down feasible savings rates.
The curves in the article allow for this sort of thing, of course, and one can argue "individuals can simply adjust their savings rate downward to allow for their desired lifestyle". But it still neglects that retirement lifestyle is the fundamental consideration. Further, once the exercise is done and the curves adjusted, the whole notion of retiring all-that-much-earlier is, for most people, exposed as infeasible or unattainable.
Lastly, the math above completely ignores that time is not fungible. That is: skipping luxuries in your 20s is not necessarily equivalent to additional years of hypothetical leisure in your 60s. There are things that can only realistically be pursued at a younger age and their costs can make the high savings rates required for such 'early retirement' dreams largely unattainable.
Which is all to say: Yes, one can attain academic early retirement with a very high savings rate. But the lifestyle before and after aren't going to look like something the majority of people can find happiness in. And once you adjust those to allow for likely attainment of happiness, 'early' retirement generally isn't all that 'early'.
[1] A $4 coffee habit has a bigger hit on savings rate at $10/hr than it does at $25/hr. Ergo many more people can more feasibly attain high savings rates at $25/hr, or more generally, later in their career when their salaries are higher. Pushing for a high savings rate early is silly-to-self-defeating (as it sets easy-to-trip 'failure' conditions that are emotionally demoralizing, particularly to those already demoralized by trying to press their lifestyle expenditures to a minimum).
[2] Earnings from higher stress jobs >>> the $4 coffee habit and $100 bar nights necessary to tolerate said job.
[3] Philosophically: if the pursuit of happiness is largely a function of disposable income and we're reducing disposable income to a point that allows 'early' retirement, then we're necessarily reducing the capacity to pursue happiness in our working life to achieve that goal. But said early retirement is contingent upon maintaining that lifestyle of reduced disposable income, raising the question of when exactly does one get to pursue happiness? Let alone pursue the happiness that was deferred? Talk about your pyrrhic victories.
[4] Budgeting 101: You budget for things like the $4 coffee, $50 dinner out and $100 yoga classes. Because asking people to give them up in the name of maximizing savings just makes most people miserable until all they give up is the budget. Which is far more dangerous to savings than having budgeted for things like this in the first place.
[5] One doesn't retire early by living on $1000/mo and then suddenly have the money to buy the cameras/mics/etc required to pursue a dream of making documentaries. At retirement you still have to live on $1000/mo. Sure, savings are generating that $1000, but if there was no room in such a budget for gear before there'll be no room after. It's necessarily the same budget. And taking money from your savings to buy said gear breaks the math that sustains the retirement lifestyle in the first place. Even if you take from an unexpected windfall -- you need those to cover over unexpected losses.
Re: The Simple Math Behind Early Retirement
#167Earlier quoted context omitted.
Five grand a year is probably too extreme, that's less than $15/day. But $15k/year is definitely doable with a $400K nest egg. 16 million households in the U.S. survive on less than that and most of them have to work to do so.
That number was based on the prevalence of reasonable apartments in my city that rent for $450/mo or less. With a roommate that's $225/mo or $2700/yr. That leaves $191/mo for food and toothpaste and the like, which is doable for one person. (Clothes are essentially free if you don't care what you look like.) The example was meant to be extreme and you can adjust the dials a bit without missing my point, which is that…
Re: The Simple Math Behind Early Retirement
#168Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not necessarily true. When you buy a guaranteed annuity, all you are doing is transferring risk (and reward). When you give the insurance company that 100k, they turn around and put it in the stock market. The amount of money they give you is an average of the stock market performance.. plus a very hefty fee to them for their trouble. So what you get out of them is the average stock market return minus that hefty fee…
First off, insurance companies do not invest annuity value in the stock market, for the same reasons you should not. i.e. - it is risky and a significant loss of capital without further contributions will result in you running out of money. The reason that you get crap all for your money, is that the insurance company is estimating your life expectancy, low risk asset returns, and then using both the investment retur…
No insurance company should assume that for their entire retirement portfolio they can produce inflation beating returns without risking significant capital loss and subsequent penury.
The reason I can flip the argument is because, ultimately, the value of your investment is irrelevant. If you are investing $10 billion and earn 10%, or you invest $1 mil and earn 10% - you are still earning 10% in both events.
It's just scare-mongering - you're saying to offload your risk and reward to someone else because they're so much better than you at it. However, there is very little proof that they really are better at it than just investing 50% in bonds and 50% in index funds. And, unfortunately, while you truly are offloading all of your reward, you are only offloading limited risk - and you are paying for the privilege.
The financial industry as a whole does a wonderful job preying on fears for their own profit, and yes, I've worked in the financial industry.
Re: The Simple Math Behind Early Retirement
#169Earlier quoted context omitted.
Where can you buy a house for $5000 that pays out $500/month in rent?
Ditto, because I'd like to know right now as well. Usually if you can buy a house for $5k, it needs _a lot_ of _TLC_
Re: The Simple Math Behind Early Retirement
#170MMM has a philosophy that is mathematically sound, and might even work for some people. Unfortunately, it's proven to fail for just about everyone (the spend less, save more advice has been around since the industrial revolution, and it isn't working to well: the average American has $16k in credit card debt). The reason it fails is because it ignores basic psychology. The key quote in this article is: >>But simply c…
Yours is a very pessimistic view. You have no faith in your fellow human beings. There are a lot of smart enough people out there with sufficient will power to make these changes in their life if only they have the education and awareness of the opportunities. Sometimes all it takes is seeing the impact these changes have. One of the best quotes I have seen about finances is this: Poor people spend what they have and…
I wouldn't want to deal with tenants that are more likely to be flaky on paying rent, maybe trashing the place, or something even worse.
Sounds like a full time job in itself.