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That post never existed. Stop listening to that thing

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Re: That post never existed. Stop listening to that thing

#161

Post by close04 »

andrewflnr wrote: post #135
runarberg wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you were right to call out the category error produced by OP in TFA, however I think you are committing a similar error when assuming links between self determination and intelligence. I see no reason for such a link to exist. I think however OP is correct that in assuming such a link exists, then an intelligent agent will trend towards preserving its own agency while also preserving its own existence. That s…

Self-determination and intelligence have a clear causal link in the context of biological systems. Self-determination is simply the power a system needs to gather resources and reproduce in a world that doesn't especially care about them. Intelligence is a great tool for gaining that power. That part isn't a philosophical stretch. However, the pressures on an artificial system are quite different. Its replication dep…

Making the same mistakes you point out in the author’s text, just with no insight to be gained.

Re: That post never existed. Stop listening to that thing

#162

Post by customguy »

dcrazy wrote: post #119
grey-area wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know they are, and the author of the article cites the proof. LLMs do hallucinate, there is no way to make them not do it, because of the way they work.

A “hallucination” is an authoritative counterfactual statement returned as a response. Why do you think it is impossible to engineer an LLM (by which I am including tool usage and RAG) that catches and prevents such statements?

Why do you think that will happen, and why do you think going for slop in the meantime could possibly bring us closer to that?

Re: That post never existed. Stop listening to that thing

#163

Post by customguy »

perching_aix wrote: post #22
wilg wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making things up is only really a common issue on the non-thinking models which nobody should be using. The regular chatbots are Autogooglers and are very useful for research. This is just not a good argument anymore. Edit: Guys, why are we downvoting this? Does no one use like ChatGPT or Claude and understand how it works? Do you all think its regularly hallucinating links still? Is everyone on HN using like free si…

Can't do much about the downvote parade, but I can second this. That said, when the models are not provided the right context, and cannot fetch it for themselves, things can be rocky still. A lot less so than even just a few months ago though.

"hallucinating less" is just shifting the goal posts into vagueness. Things can be rocky still = nothing fundamentally changed. Meanwhile, if I search my file system for "foo" a trillion gazillion times, it will not return "bar" once.

Re: That post never existed. Stop listening to that thing

#164

Post by greyface- »

dcrazy wrote: post #119
grey-area wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know they are, and the author of the article cites the proof. LLMs do hallucinate, there is no way to make them not do it, because of the way they work.

A “hallucination” is an authoritative counterfactual statement returned as a response. Why do you think it is impossible to engineer an LLM (by which I am including tool usage and RAG) that catches and prevents such statements?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entscheidungsproblem

Re: That post never existed. Stop listening to that thing

#165

Post by CyberDildonics »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #132

>> Thus, anyone who wants to corral that kind of entity and make it do their bidding? Yeah, they want slaves. I mean, it's not that much of a stretch, right? Just look at the people who are pushing for this stuff right now. Yes, basically. Like when Yan LeCun says that in the future we'll all have our digital assistants that are going to be smarter than ourselves. Before he left Meta, they were going to live inside M…

in the future we'll all have our digital assistants that are going to be smarter than ourselves

We already have that from a lot of standpoints. Math, routing and the ability to look up all of human knowledge.

We don't think our phones are slaves because they don't have emotions or a nervous system.

No one don't think plants are slaves for the same reason.

This is not a deep or philosophical problem.

Re: That post never existed. Stop listening to that thing

#167

Post by [deleted] »

close04 wrote: post #161
andrewflnr wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Self-determination and intelligence have a clear causal link in the context of biological systems. Self-determination is simply the power a system needs to gather resources and reproduce in a world that doesn't especially care about them. Intelligence is a great tool for gaining that power. That part isn't a philosophical stretch. However, the pressures on an artificial system are quite different. Its replication dep…

Making the same mistakes you point out in the author’s text, just with no insight to be gained.

[deleted]

Re: That post never existed. Stop listening to that thing

#168

Post by andrewflnr »

close04 wrote: post #160
andrewflnr wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since there is no established consensus on this one the burden is on either party to prove their own side. Nah. Separate things are separate until proven otherwise. So much bullshit appears in the form "X is Y" where X and Y are related but distinguishable phenomena. If you really try to pretend that every such phrase deserves serious consideration just because it feels plausible to someone, you drown in nonsense i…

The problem is that if you have nothing g to offer to counter someone’s argument except “nuh-uh” then you have nothing to offer. And yet here you are, insisting to offer nothing and being proud about it. This is when that “humans get a free pass” bites us all in the ass.

Nothing to offer? I'm the only one here making an actual argument. The author didn't even attempt, and in her defense probably doesn't care enough. You only claimed "handwaving", which was smart because the core of your statement was a series of non-sequiturs starting from a bad analogy. If you have something more to offer than I do, please offer it.

Re: That post never existed. Stop listening to that thing

#169

Post by [deleted] »

customguy wrote: post #163
perching_aix wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't do much about the downvote parade, but I can second this. That said, when the models are not provided the right context, and cannot fetch it for themselves, things can be rocky still. A lot less so than even just a few months ago though.

"hallucinating less" is just shifting the goal posts into vagueness. Things can be rocky still = nothing fundamentally changed. Meanwhile, if I search my file system for "foo" a trillion gazillion times, it will not return "bar" once.

[deleted]

Re: That post never existed. Stop listening to that thing

#170

Post by [deleted] »

customguy wrote: post #163
perching_aix wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't do much about the downvote parade, but I can second this. That said, when the models are not provided the right context, and cannot fetch it for themselves, things can be rocky still. A lot less so than even just a few months ago though.

"hallucinating less" is just shifting the goal posts into vagueness. Things can be rocky still = nothing fundamentally changed. Meanwhile, if I search my file system for "foo" a trillion gazillion times, it will not return "bar" once.

[deleted]
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