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Control the Ideas, Not the Code

antirez.com

161–170 of 208 posts

Re: Control the Ideas, Not the Code

#161
post #140

Very egocentric piece. Almost reads as “I’m so cool, I did so many cool things, and most things other people did is way worse than even the slop that my LLM prompting skills are capable to produce”. Also “ You have to understand how things work, what is the best design, how to reach a certain level of performance.” - how does OP propose to understand how things work or what is the best design if you don’t actually go…

This is pretty unfair. If the author didn't establish some context there would be someone else here saying "Check out this dilettante telling me what to think." I have a degree in mathematics followed by twenty years in software development (pillory me, if you like). My conclusions after 6 months of using LLMs every day are remarkably similar to the author's. I increasingly think in shapes, architectures, data struct…

I bet you had to solve math equations and prove math stuff to get your degree, am I right? Now imagine I tell you that you could have just prompted LLMs with “please solve the is and make no mistakes”, would you think you’d be able to get your math degree?

The point I’m trying to make is that it’s very easy to tell everyone “don’t read the code, just focus on architecture” when you have decades of experience behind your shoulders, where you HAD to read the code, iterate, learn from your mistakes, read code written by others, and actually writing and making stuff yourself to gain that experience and understand architecture.

How do you expect people to learn all this stuff that you know if don’t want them to actually do the work but instead “control the idea”, whatever this means? It’s just baffles me that people don’t see this.

Re: Control the Ideas, Not the Code

#162
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a completely reasonable take. I wouldn't have any issue with a nuanced comment like that. My issue with your above comment is that it's a lot more arrogant than nuanced.

That's fair, I think my point is there's a nuanced theory behind my choice to be rude, which is essentially "you need to experiment more, be more open minded, really work at it, and then you'll see what others are seeing, it isn't impossible." It's like Dark Souls, nobody can beat it for you, or teach you how to use dodge rolls, you've gotta build that skill yourself, and blaming the tools won't help.

I agree with you and I didn't think your comment was rude. Some people are against using LLMs and they will always find an excuse instead of experimenting with them so it doesn't matter how helpful you try to be they already made their mind.

Re: Control the Ideas, Not the Code

#163
post #55

Code is not literature. It's not poetry. It does not express the human spirit. Code is a machine made of symbols. Engineers do care about the beauty of their machine designs, but in the end what matters is whether the machine performs its function correctly, efficiently, affordably. What's wonderful about software is that the function of software is to take input data and produce output data. Every aspect of it is me…

I could not disagree more.

I can't even fathom how someone can say this with a straight face. Judging by the absolute garbage (architecture-wise) that the frontier models put out, I pity anyone taken in by this sort of thinking. They regularly tie themselves in knots and dig deeper holes for themselves without my intervention.

Software is exact; its maths. We would not tolerate a machine that operates on the basis proving/applying theorems right like 60% of the time. How we think this is suddenly acceptable in software engineering baffles me. CVEs can kill people, bad software can cause severe harms

But maybe I should not be on here arguing about this. I should be out there working on how to profit off such fundamental misunderstandings.

Re: Control the Ideas, Not the Code

#164

I strongly agree with antirez. I believe that an intellectually honest programmer should recognize where their knowledge and experience is mostly beneficial, and at this point (and we've seen clear signs for some time) coding is largely solved. Which doesn't mean that you can just prompt at a very high level, but that iterating with the LLM over decisions, designs and tests, will essentially allow you to not write a…

Actually, this paper shows that the LLMs create a lot more slop and degradation of the code after the first prompt. https://arxiv.org/html/2603.24755v1.

So iterating with the LLM will simply make it to produce worse and worse code.

Re: Control the Ideas, Not the Code

#165

I highly respect Antirez, and as an Italian fellow programmer, for me, he's like a legend! Although reading this article makes me quite sad; I consider myself an average, mediocre programmer, but I enjoy writing code since it's a way to build the mental model of a problem and to solve it iteratively. I obviously use agents and all the new fancy tools, but if a great programmer like Antirez says that it's over, I thin…

[deleted]

Re: Control the Ideas, Not the Code

#166
Problem is that in our job we are conflating several things that are different:

- Coding: Writing instructions in a programming language. Example: writing a function that calculates the total price of an order.

- Programming: Designing a solution, writing the code, testing it, and fixing problems. Example: building a small application that manages orders and payments.

- Software engineering: Creating and maintaining reliable software systems using structured processes, architecture, testing, documentation, and teamwork. Example: designing an online store that can support millions of users and be maintained for many years.

It seems like in the future coding will all be done by machines and we can use our brain for the other 2 things.

Re: Control the Ideas, Not the Code

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure, we're reducing the cost of idea -> prototype to near zero (well, as long as tokens are free or nearly free), but that just means we now have mountains of throw away code, within which there may a gem or two. This doesn't strike me as wrong, but where the rubber meets the road. Let me give you an example. My superior with close to zero programming skills, sat down with Claude and "wrote" a Django backend with…

> Fable was used in several iterations to test for security issues before each release. How? The point of Fable (vs. Mythos) is that it has extreme guardrails against doing e. g. security work, even mentioning "security" or "vulnerability" in the prompt will shut it down.

Just opened Claude Code and I don't see any such restrictions. Asked Fable to do security/vulnerability review on the code base and it gladly agreed.

I can't speak for the above-mentioned project though, because I wasn't part of that release.

Re: Control the Ideas, Not the Code

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fair, I think my point is there's a nuanced theory behind my choice to be rude, which is essentially "you need to experiment more, be more open minded, really work at it, and then you'll see what others are seeing, it isn't impossible." It's like Dark Souls, nobody can beat it for you, or teach you how to use dodge rolls, you've gotta build that skill yourself, and blaming the tools won't help.

I agree with you and I didn't think your comment was rude. Some people are against using LLMs and they will always find an excuse instead of experimenting with them so it doesn't matter how helpful you try to be they already made their mind.

> Some people are against using LLMs and they will always find an excuse instead of experimenting with them so it doesn't matter how helpful you try to be they already made their mind.

Do you think that I'm "against LLMs" and "finding an excuse instead of experimenting" because I disagree with you and the parent comment? If so, you should consider whether your perceptions are accurate, because I use them extensively.

More generally, if you aren't interested in engaging with the people who disagree with you, and you think that enough of them are arguing in bad faith and will never change their mind that their presence should determine the tone of your comments, why bother engaging in the discussion at all then?

Re: Control the Ideas, Not the Code

#169
Humans are fallible, so we review the code. They "hallucinate" and produce mistakes and go in the wrong direction. We evolved an entire discipline around processes, tools, reviews etc. to help remedy (not solve!) this.

For some reason, the moment those humans are being replaced by fallible, stochastic machines, we decide to just throw the baby out with the bathwater entirely and no longer leverage critical parts of this pipeline? Because it's inefficient and we're bottlenecking the process? The magic of LLMs has quite literally bought us more cycles to do this stuff, not less!

I use the things every day to an extreme degree and still I don't think I will ever quite understand the leaps in logic required to arrive at this position.

Re: Control the Ideas, Not the Code

#170
post #47

Ideas are a dime a dozen. All of us have half a dozen of what appear to be good ideas every. Execution matters, testing and sanity checking matters, actual engagement with users and iteration matters. Sure, we're reducing the cost of idea -> prototype to near zero (well, as long as tokens are free or nearly free), but that just means we now have mountains of throw away code, within which there may a gem or two. Nothi…

> Sure, we're reducing the cost of idea -> prototype to near zero (well, as long as tokens are free or nearly free), but that just means we now have mountains of throw away code, within which there may a gem or two. This doesn't strike me as wrong, but where the rubber meets the road. Let me give you an example. My superior with close to zero programming skills, sat down with Claude and "wrote" a Django backend with…

> You tell me what to do with that.

That if you polish it a bit, you can probably write a short story. /s

The thing is, making claims like that doesn’t prove anything. You have to either show the result or prove that is reproducible. Otherwise, it may as well be something you dream up this morning.

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