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Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

ranpara.net

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Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm very reluctant to believe people when they say they don't have an internal monologue. Studies on the matter all appear to rely on self-reported data, not objective measurements. It's been shown that electromyography can be used to measure myoelectric signals produced when a person subvocalizes their speech (i.e. an inner monologue). It works well enough to reconstruct and synthesize that speech. So we could test…

I'm not sure what you think all these people have to gain from tricking you. I have no internal monologue. None whatsoever. If I have something like an internal monologue I don't have any conscious access to it at all. When I want to think through a spatial type problem, I can visualize shapes, images, rotations, relationships, etc but it has no verbal component. If I want to think through a text or verbal heavy task…

> I'm not sure what you think all these people have to gain from tricking you.

Asking for objective evidence of a phenomenon being self-reported by enough people to make the news isn't really about me. I don't know why you're being defensive in a thread that wasn't directed at you, but this is not a good sign.

Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#162
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Animals don’t have language the same way we do, but many of them do have some kind of semi-structured communication. Cats for example, when domesticated, develop an entirely parallel method of communication specifically to interact with humans - one that is neotenous in genesis, but nonetheless absent from their feral counterparts.

While true, the connection between communication and consciousness is thin. Plenty of plants communicate with each other, but it’s seen as signaling rather than consciousness. I believe that conscious is a gradient not a binary, and I believe that cats have some level of consciousness, but I’m not sure communication is the thing to hang that on.

I think comparing vocalized, intentional communication with chemical signaling is reductive and does not support your point at all.

Humans also emit pheromones, this is not the same as, or related in any way to language.

Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#163
post #152
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is in the same vein to what I wanted to say here as well - I find it very likely that people with no internal monologue are executing similar mental processes, just without them being so “front and center” in the mind.

Metacognition https://oecs.mit.edu/pub/zjuzickv not everyone is aware of the "methodology", they just think it through, some however have an executive layer to cognition vs reflex. imnot sure enough to form an opinion quite yet but thinking about thinking, modifying the methods of cognition, may be a learned skill, perhaps with a developmental window. a comparison between extroverts and introverts [1] for perceived m…

> myself, i think in terms of a mono/dialogue if i am preparing to disseminate.

> if i am thinking for my own benefit i percieve it as idetic imagery and run thought experiments to qualify for IRL candidacy.

I’m very similar personally, though I often have background dialogues going over “sub threads” of whatever I’m thinking about.

I have also wondered if people who say they don’t have this kind of thought process actually do - but the real difference is that for some reason it persists in memory for us, whereas it is immediately discarded for them, leaving only the result.

Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#164
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever had impressions about something complicated, e.g. someone's personality which you cannot put into words? I'm thinking of my kid - her personality when she was tiny. I could see what it was but not explain it. Hence I think ideas are unquestionably first and words are the inadequate and inaccurate description of thoughts that exist without them.

Have you ever reasoned through a complex coding or maths problem? Tell me, how did you do that without words? You (and TFA) are making a false dichotomy here. Yes, of course we think in images. But we also have an inner monologue that is critically important for much of our higher-level thought. How do you even write a HN comment without thinking through it in words?

This doesn't seem like a dichotomy to me. Words can be a byproduct of thought and consciousness while also enabling new forms of consciousness and reasoning.

Clothing enables the human body to do things it couldn't before (staying warm, protecting the skin and feet, etc), but it also couldn't exist without the human body to create it.

Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#165

It is not all obvious that consciousness precedes language. Hellen Keller provides a vivid description of her pre-verbal mental state as something less than reflective conscious. > Before my teacher came to me, I did not know that I am. I lived in a world that was a no-world. I cannot hope to describe adequately that unconscious, yet conscious time of nothingness. I did not know that I knew aught, or that I lived or…

There are real questions about the veracity of some of these Helen Keller quotes, and reason to believe that a lot of it was really coming from Anne Sullivan. There are really three main observations that give pause. First, after she started working with Sullivan, Keller apparently developed a writing style and nuanced opinions reminiscent of a college-educated person virtually overnight. That’s pretty surprising for…

TL;DR: I think while Sullivan did add context, much of the context could've been "decompression" in an almost technical sense. This would've made Helen's exact words more palatable for the world to consume, and Sullivan could've been running the same intuitive algorithm in reverse to make the broader communication of the world accessible to Helen. This probably affects other disciplines as well, e.g business.

Of course this entire premise is couched in my LLM-based reproduction of the idea, so uh, take it with a few grains of salt. I tried this on your own comment to "compress" and then "decompress" to see what the outcome is.

---

I took your first paragraph starting with "After [Helen] started working with" through "high level of proficiency." and 'compressed' it as Helen's own tactile signing might've done. Did it via a temporary cgpt session. Prompted "I'm going to give you a fully formed thought. Give it back to me as if it was Helen Keller herself signing the words into Sullivan's hand. I.e if Helen didn't use filler words when signing into Sullivan's hand, don't use those words either in your reframing of this thought."

> Sullivan came. Language came.

> Soon, words rich. Thought subtle. Writing like long study. Strange. Child. New language. Yet mind seemed already full.

> Sullivan died.

> Rich words gone. Thought simpler. Same hands. Different voice.

> No second Helen.

> Others deaf-blind. Language late. Same result. Language never deep.

> Perhaps first language must come early. Speech. Sign. No matter. Miss that season. Full language may never come.

---

I then, in a second, unrelated temporary session, prompted to expand the prose above into a fully formed thought. "The following is a thought conveyed via a "compressed, tactile, idea-first" language. Expand it into the full meaning that the speaker, deaf and blind, might've intended. Keep to one or two paragraphs. Do not go online."

> When Anne Sullivan entered Helen Keller’s life, language arrived with her—not merely labels for objects, but a system rich enough to support subtle thought, reflection, and writing of remarkable sophistication. That achievement was almost uncanny: Helen was still a child, newly acquiring her first true language, yet her prose often sounded as though it came from a mind already long educated. After Sullivan died, however, that richness seemed to fade. Helen still used the same hands and remained the same person, but the voice became plainer and the thought less intricate, raising the unsettling possibility that some of what appeared to be Helen’s singular literary mind had depended on Sullivan’s continual linguistic presence.

> No comparable “second Helen” emerged among other deaf-blind people who first gained language late. Their experiences seemed to point toward a critical period: perhaps the human mind must receive a complete first language early in childhood, whether spoken or signed. Once that window closes, vocabulary can still be taught and communication can still develop, but language may never become fully deep, flexible, and generative.

--

My interpretation is that it's pretty similar. Even your "critical period" reference made it through compression/decompression despite the words not being present. There's some variation, and I think that supports what you're looking to convey, but it also could add weight to the idea that much of what Sullivan expressed could really have been mostly Helen's own thoughts and meanings. Of course none of this is rigorous and my entire exercise should be treated as "back of the napkin" ideation rather than actual science, but there's a thread to pull here, and it could have value in other disciplines e.g in business where intended meanings, statuses, outcomes may be preserved or lost based on how language mutates as it passes through different people.

Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO it's far more likely that people don't agree on what it means to "have an internal monologue" than that people actually bifurcate that dramatically on cognition. Surely there are some people with an actual difference from baseline, but I don't think it's the near-equal split that seems to appear when you just ask people about internal monologue This is in contrast with aphantasia (complete lack of mental imagery)…

I'm very reluctant to believe people when they say they don't have an internal monologue. Studies on the matter all appear to rely on self-reported data, not objective measurements. It's been shown that electromyography can be used to measure myoelectric signals produced when a person subvocalizes their speech (i.e. an inner monologue). It works well enough to reconstruct and synthesize that speech. So we could test…

> I'm very reluctant to believe people when they say they don't have an internal monologue.

Why would you choose internal monologue as the default position and no internal monologue needs to be proved?

It seems the natural position for an unknown would be to assume it is not the case unless there is evidence for it.

Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#167

It is not all obvious that consciousness precedes language. Hellen Keller provides a vivid description of her pre-verbal mental state as something less than reflective conscious. > Before my teacher came to me, I did not know that I am. I lived in a world that was a no-world. I cannot hope to describe adequately that unconscious, yet conscious time of nothingness. I did not know that I knew aught, or that I lived or…

I think this is different if you have vision though. I struggle to understand how someone can look at intelligent animals that don’t have language and not intuitively assume that they’re conscious. Yes this is a tricky problem without an answer but IMO the elements of consciousness can exist without language if visual abstractions are present.

Yes. I have high confidence that animals are in fact conscious, in the same way that one can train in meditation and completely (although briefly) shut off the thinking brain, the inner dialog, and still be fully conscious and aware of what’s happening. For me, consciousness is this awareness of all the inputs we are having: visual, tactile, sound, etc. there’s no reason to believe that primates weren’t conscious of what was happening, of their surroundings, sensations, sounds, etc. before language developed.

Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#168
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is different if you have vision though. I struggle to understand how someone can look at intelligent animals that don’t have language and not intuitively assume that they’re conscious. Yes this is a tricky problem without an answer but IMO the elements of consciousness can exist without language if visual abstractions are present.

Please define "conscious". Please give an example of an interaction with an animal that suggests that the animal is conscious, but not using language. Challenge round: Please demonstrate that conscious animals are not using internal idiolect (language with 1 user) and lack the physical ability to develop a form of shared communication for that language.

You can touch an animal and it will react to it. Why are you putting language in front of it? Or let’s put it this way, what though you need to think before you feel something is interacting with you body? What you define as consciousness, having a theory of mind or any kind or inner monologue is a very small subset of what consciousness is. And I’m not talking about some pseudo esoteric hippy thing here. I’m talking about what Tomas Nigel was talking about many many years ago https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~cavitch/pdf-library/Nagel_Bat.pdf

Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm very reluctant to believe people when they say they don't have an internal monologue. Studies on the matter all appear to rely on self-reported data, not objective measurements. It's been shown that electromyography can be used to measure myoelectric signals produced when a person subvocalizes their speech (i.e. an inner monologue). It works well enough to reconstruct and synthesize that speech. So we could test…

> I'm very reluctant to believe people when they say they don't have an internal monologue. Why would you choose internal monologue as the default position and no internal monologue needs to be proved? It seems the natural position for an unknown would be to assume it is not the case unless there is evidence for it.

Because most people I know can read without mouthing the words. At any rate, we can just test both cases if people who claim one or the other are willing.

I'm not sure why this seems like a problem, or why you have to criticize my default position, but my own personal views on the matter aren't important here.

Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#170
I have to disagree with the fundamental premise here. LLMs do indeed have an internal "concept" mapping - the embedding layer. There's some fun demos on youtube[1] where you can manipulate embedding vectors (such as king - man + woman = queen), and these manipulations are done entirely in the embedding/concept space.

[1] https://youtu.be/gQddtTdmG_8 (around 14:00)

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