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European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

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Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#161
So when Google bans someone, that person also loses access to all services that require digital ID, forever?

I remember when a Youtuber asked live viewers to "vote" by typing emojis, and a whole bunch of viewers got their Google accounts banned for spamming[1]. Google is also famously averse to user support (understandable given the scale of their free services), so individual remedy is unlikely.

I can already see the new ransomware: "pay us or we'll send spam from your gmail and you'll lose your digital ID".

[1] https://www.engadget.com/2019-11-10-youtube-reinstates-banne...

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#162
post #36

The EU reference for wallets strictly required google play services https://github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet/eudi-app-andro... So Italy's IO app https://github.com/pagopa/io-app (wallet, documents, age verification) continuously refuses the users' request for GrapheneOS support and requires google. Nothing will change until the lawsuits start coming in. The only hope is the motorola/grapheneOS collaboration and…

Special-casing support for GrapheneOS would be a band-aid, they should find a way to avoid requiring remote attestation in the first place, so anyone can use whatever OS they like on whatever hardware they like.

Agreed, it should be open standards only.

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#163
post #131

Even relying on Android's hardware attestation API instead of Play Integrity is an attack on digital autonomy in my opinion. Any security feature which relies on remote attestation of the users entire platform is government overreach as it ultimately gives the government the power to choose what operating systems are acceptable. It is only a matter of time before this power will be misused to put pressure on OS devel…

I'm ok with enforcing hardware security. Both for banks and governments. But it must not limit the ability of running custom software on a phone. And especially not enforcing every person to get a Google/Apple signed phone. Like if I get GrapheneOS on my phone. Banking/gov apps should work. But I believe this could be possible with enforcing hardware security as well.

The chain of trust always has a software layer. I don’t believe what you want is possible.

I find the bank talking point strange, why are they special, are they even targeted more. It just feels like a boogeyman “think of your money!”

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Aren't monopolies is what we end up by default if have no regulation at all? No. Monopolies are only inevitable if the goods aren't elastic, if there is a large cost of entry into the market, or if its a market you can create a moat that is unsurmountable. Many markets don't have that even with 0 regulation, but might have second order problems like firms creating unsafe products for example. But in general regulat…

Don't bigger companies also often benefit from scale in multiple ways so it gets harder and harder for newcomers to compete? And if a newcomer does manage to get a foothold, it might get bought.

> Don't bigger companies also often benefit from scale in multiple ways so it gets harder and harder for newcomers to compete?

That is one of the ways a Moat can happen and a monopoly can occur. For example if you were the only person with a loom and everyone else had to make jumpers by hand, you could make them so cheap they would have to close down.

In some markets those ways you can benefit from scale exist, in others there are drawbacks. In many cases those advantages only exist due to either regulation or lac thereof.

For example ways companies might have an advantage is by manufacturing in cheaper countries, but that only works because those workers have less rights and the cost of transporting is not properly taxed. Carbon taxes on shipping would make manufacturing in China pretty comparatively priced to many european countries. But if you let them contaminate the ocean with crude oil boats, then their manufacturing prowess and cheaper labour cost will offset the shipping cost and destroy a newcomer.

These are very basic examples and they all require nuance but hope it helps to explain it a bit more.

Another example is restaurants, you used to have some advantages from being a chain, but you would still constantly see mom and pop joints compete and even win. But as rent prices keep increasing (the non elastic market of the ground under the lease), suddenly the advantages of scale start beating the disadvantages of worse food and service.

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Special-casing support for GrapheneOS would be a band-aid, they should find a way to avoid requiring remote attestation in the first place, so anyone can use whatever OS they like on whatever hardware they like.

Agreed, it should be open standards only.

No! An open standard for remote attestation would still be remote attestation.

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#166

Here in Germany we had court rulings saying the german railway (DB) must offer offline tickets that do not require a computer or smartphone to purchase to not discriminate against the elderly. I am pretty sure we will see similar rulings for EUDI wallet requiring Google/Apple.

[deleted]

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#167
post #36

The EU reference for wallets strictly required google play services https://github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet/eudi-app-andro... So Italy's IO app https://github.com/pagopa/io-app (wallet, documents, age verification) continuously refuses the users' request for GrapheneOS support and requires google. Nothing will change until the lawsuits start coming in. The only hope is the motorola/grapheneOS collaboration and…

As a technical point, note that however there is no legal requirement to follow this reference. Wallet providers can choose a different implementation.

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#168
5 years ago, some smarty pants would've worked out how to implement digital ID wallets on the block-chain, and there would've been some uptake for it in the European environment .. these days however, it appears everyone has given up on that idea and defaulted back to the fascist approach (corporations doing government work).

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"functionally illiterate" means that while you can read your native language, you will not correctly understand what you have just read. Rates seem to vary state by state, from as low as 8% (denmark) to 43% (romania). It's also not a clearly defined target, since it would be better to have rates based on the reading comprehension of the average school at year X or something similar.

I'm curious about this definition, just because it's not something I've ever considered before and googling seems to muddy the water even more. Is it "functionally illiterate" if you can read the language aloud and not understand it, if you also wouldn't have understood the same thing spoken to you? That seems like it's about comprehension ability, not literacy. Although one thing that just occurred to me is that if…

posters upthread are talking about comprehension and value systems, not literacy.

"functionally illiterate" is the brush that one paints with when describing people of opposing political viewpoint or lower socioeconomic status, for example.

Re: European digital ID wallets rely on safety services of Google and Apple

#170

Here in Germany we had court rulings saying the german railway (DB) must offer offline tickets that do not require a computer or smartphone to purchase to not discriminate against the elderly. I am pretty sure we will see similar rulings for EUDI wallet requiring Google/Apple.

There are AFAIK no plans to completely remove the offline ID everyone is currently required to carry, so I doubt there will be similar rulings for EUDI as long as it remains an optional alternative for people who want to use online services.
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