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Trains halted across Germany because of communication system problem

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Re: Trains halted across Germany because of communication system problem

#161

Post by tonyedgecombe »

ahartmetz wrote: post #98
eqvinox wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For context, in case people are less familiar with German politics: DB is in a misbegotten state of privatization, started in the 90ies. The government spun it out into a private company but still owns 100% of it. They were trying to pump it up so they could sell it for good money. They did that by skimping on everything including maintenance, to try and make the numbers look good. Except they never got to whatever m…

The one good thing is that they failed to take it private. Imagine how bad it would be with the current maintenance backlog and no public funding.

Rail journeys in the UK doubled after privatisation. The service was dire under public ownership because it never got enough investment.

Re: Trains halted across Germany because of communication system problem

#162

Post by retired »

cyberax wrote: post #142
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not sure if this is better or worse than the UK's Network Rail story “About 72 per cent of Deutsche Bahn’s intercity trains arrived within 10 minutes of their scheduled arrival time in the year to January 2025, compared with 78 per cent of British long-distance trains, according to the FT analysis. Any interaction with the German rail network is also one of the biggest factors affecting the punctuality of long-dist…

Heh. Ukraine is doing better than that _during_ _the_ _war_: https://en.cfts.org.ua/news/ukrzaliznytsia_boasts_97_train_d...

Germany also was very punctual with their trains during the war.

Re: Trains halted across Germany because of communication system problem

#163

Post by retired »

shmeeed wrote: post #160
mmoll wrote: post #4

If this weren’t Deutsche Bahn, I’d say it’s a cyber attack. Given that this is Deutsche Bahn, though, it may just as well be a maintenance issue.

Given the current heat wave, it might be a case of "trains not running because it's too hot"? As opposed to, you know, "trains not running because it's too cold", e.g. because of icing on the overhead lines.

Don’t forget trains not running due to leaves on the track.

Re: Trains halted across Germany because of communication system problem

#164

Post by tonyedgecombe »

dcel wrote: post #137
phatfish wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything about UK rail is custom (apart from the gauge). Apparently it's one of the (many) reasons HS2 is such a mess. They were trying to run trains faster than typical continental high speed lines, which meant custom design work that needs loads of additional testing and certification. Rather than just use the Spanish or French high speed designs.

Max line speed of HS2 is 360km/h, with provision for 400 in some sections in future. This is entirely in line with many other modern HS lines. China’s been running regular 360km/h services for years. This is a project with a 200+ year shelf life. Designing to 300 or less would have been short sighted, and many of the changes to accommodate such high speeds actually reduce costs in the long term (slab track, headroom…

One of the drivers of cost has been the high speed part. It meant the route needed to be straight which meant more tunnelling to avoid certain areas. Lower speed track would have allowed them to route around problem areas.

Re: Trains halted across Germany because of communication system problem

#165

Post by retired »

RetroTechie wrote: post #120
puttycat wrote: post #63

A truly chaotic week in Europe, alongside the UK train crash and the unprecedented heat wave.

It could be chaos on Dutch rail too the coming day. Trimmed down schedule on some of the busiest routes (due to the current heatwave). Add to that a labor union strike on Wednesday June 24 (that's today local time as I write this). Although NL rail travelers are usually quite good at anticipating, and adjust their schedule. So might just be a quieter-than-usual day.

It helps that 90% of the population can cycle to work if they have to. Remote work is also very big.

Re: Trains halted across Germany because of communication system problem

#166

Post by ablation »

felooboolooomba wrote: post #18

There was also a very peculiar train crash in the UK just a few days ago. A train hit a stationary train. That shouldn't really happen in this day and age. Sabotage was the first thing that came to my mind. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gy60gg6k5o

No, sabotage doesn't hold up. The thing that rules it out is the braking, or rather lack of it. Passengers reported no screeching and no sudden deceleration before impact, which means the driver thought the line ahead was clear. Tampered track or an obstruction or some kind of remote hack (getting into the realms of fantasy there) would normally give him something to react to. This entirely fits a missed signal or a signalling/protection failure.

It also feels like "a train hitting a stationary one shouldn't happen", but that's the textbook rear-end-after-a-SPAD scenario - e.g. Ladbroke Grove. No official has hinted at foul play either. Everything so far points to an accident in the signalling chain or faulty TPWS. But the interim report is due in two days so we'll see more then.

Re: Trains halted across Germany because of communication system problem

#167

Post by blablabla123 »

eqvinox wrote: post #78
mmoll wrote: post #4

If this weren’t Deutsche Bahn, I’d say it’s a cyber attack. Given that this is Deutsche Bahn, though, it may just as well be a maintenance issue.

For context, in case people are less familiar with German politics: DB is in a misbegotten state of privatization, started in the 90ies. The government spun it out into a private company but still owns 100% of it. They were trying to pump it up so they could sell it for good money. They did that by skimping on everything including maintenance, to try and make the numbers look good. Except they never got to whatever m…

I was once on a job interview there, in the Train/Station Wifi branch, mostly web programming related though IIRC. It wasn't so much of a quiz format but the interviewers wanted to know what I worked on before, why I wanted to change etc. What really stuck with me was how the department CTO insisted how superior and privacy conforming their logging system is. Not saving anything, not even for a micro second. I didn't dare to ask how they debugged anything. But in the end I was rejected and the reason was: more questions than answers.

Re: Trains halted across Germany because of communication system problem

#168

Post by gib444 »

dcel wrote: post #137
phatfish wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything about UK rail is custom (apart from the gauge). Apparently it's one of the (many) reasons HS2 is such a mess. They were trying to run trains faster than typical continental high speed lines, which meant custom design work that needs loads of additional testing and certification. Rather than just use the Spanish or French high speed designs.

Max line speed of HS2 is 360km/h, with provision for 400 in some sections in future. This is entirely in line with many other modern HS lines. China’s been running regular 360km/h services for years. This is a project with a 200+ year shelf life. Designing to 300 or less would have been short sighted, and many of the changes to accommodate such high speeds actually reduce costs in the long term (slab track, headroom…

> Max line speed of HS2 is 360km/h, with provision for 400 in some sections in future.

That's already been reduced to 320 km/h under this year's "HS2 reset". Which I imagine in reality will be 300 km/h normally at most, with even lower speeds seen day to day

Interestingly the written report to the government stated "However, no railway in the UK, or globally, is currently engineered for 360 kph". Are you incorrect or did they forget to include China in their research?

Anyway, I thought these were last decade's talking points? I thought it was all about capacity now, not speed? Except I thought there were also rumblings about reducing capacity from the previous announcements? Hard to keep up...!

Re: Trains halted across Germany because of communication system problem

#169

Post by probably_wrong »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #79
okanat wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They need to spend at least 3x that and they need to bring redundant workforce to fix Germany. It is completely broken now.

> They need to spend at least 3x that According to whom?

Here's an article (in German) from last year where Richard Lutz, boss at the time of Deutsche Bahn, says they needed at least twice as much as what they were getting:

https://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/mobilitaet/trotz-sond...

And here's an article (also in German) from this year about how the money that's been promised is not being delivered, leading to the cancelation of 90 projects.

https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/es-fehlt-das-geld-mehr-a...

I also remember an article about how part of the train budget was being redistributed to fix highways, but I can't find it right now.

So I agree with the parent comment: the current investment is not enough and what little they have is constantly being diverted.

Re: Trains halted across Germany because of communication system problem

#170

Post by egorfine »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #73
fnordian_slip wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what happens when you ignore critical infrastructure for three decades. Of course, if the government were to correct the mistakes of the past, it would get worse for another decade. The necessary repairs would cause a lot more delays, and voters would then say "Were giving them so much extra money, and it gets worse? Unacceptable!". So I fear we'll continue to have these problems forever.

> when you ignore critical infrastructure for three decades To be fair, Deutsche Bahn is currently spending “€107bn between 2025 and 2029” on infrastructure upgrades [1]. [1] https://www.ft.com/content/db75e347-b13b-4753-8130-6301bb55c...

Out of which €106bn are to be spent on regulations and environmental assessments.
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