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U.S. pulling ocean sensors a 'shock' for Canadian research as El Niño nears

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Re: U.S. pulling ocean sensors a 'shock' for Canadian research as El Niño nears

#161

Post by enragedcacti »

panny wrote: post #144
epistasis wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other thing they've done is make it possible to cancel any grant at any time if it goes against the politics of the current executive administration. Science has flourished in the US precisely because it could proceed without whimsical political picking and choosing, entire areas of science have flourished that would never have happened otherwise. That's not to say that politics is completely out of science, Cong…

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Call me crazy, but I think climate scientists can enumerate major carbon sources and sinks. Unfortunately your comment is so vague that I can't tell if you're referring to a specific thing some person said or if you're just imagining a guy to be mad at.

Re: U.S. pulling ocean sensors a 'shock' for Canadian research as El Niño nears

#162

Post by caconym_ »

groundzeros2015 wrote: post #66
cactacea wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science is evil and must be destroyed at all costs.

Applying even an ounce of argumentative empathy will make you more convincing and psychologically healthier.

How would you explain it? It seems either entirely ideological on the part of its architects, cynically designed to appeal to a political base that has been inculcated with that ideology, or cynically designed to enrich its architects' political and business allies under cover of appealing to a political base that has been inculcated with that ideology. Possibly some combination of those three. But the core issue is opposition to and misrepresentation of scientific consensus, on the part of an administration that has referred to its political opponents as "the enemy from within".

Re: U.S. pulling ocean sensors a 'shock' for Canadian research as El Niño nears

#163

Post by epistasis »

panny wrote: post #144
epistasis wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other thing they've done is make it possible to cancel any grant at any time if it goes against the politics of the current executive administration. Science has flourished in the US precisely because it could proceed without whimsical political picking and choosing, entire areas of science have flourished that would never have happened otherwise. That's not to say that politics is completely out of science, Cong…

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> cannot enumerate the major sources/sinks of carbon on the planet

What climate scientist can't do this? Are you talking about non-scientists calling people "science deniers"? Or are you denying that climate scientists have been able to do this, in which case yes you are literally a science-denier?

Nonetheless, you can't excuse harming the future of the entire nation because somebody had their feelings hurt. The stakes are bigger, here.

Re: U.S. pulling ocean sensors a 'shock' for Canadian research as El Niño nears

#164

Post by peyton »

munificent wrote: post #159
xg15 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can anyone explain that "anti-science" crusade to me? This doesn't seem to have any effect than reduce America's standing in the world.

The primary goal of authoritarianism is consolidation of power among a small number of elites. Anything that can reduce that power is an enemy. The essential weakness that the powerful elites have is that they are, by definition, outnumbered. So in order to consolidate and maintain power, they need to disturb any system that the masses can use to coordinate and form collective action. (It's a kid's movie, but Hopper'…

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Re: U.S. pulling ocean sensors a 'shock' for Canadian research as El Niño nears

#167

Post by epistasis »

naturalmovement wrote: post #136
xg15 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can anyone explain that "anti-science" crusade to me? This doesn't seem to have any effect than reduce America's standing in the world.

There's a lot of collateral damage that could have been avoided if millions weren't being squandered on dubious "science" like studying grooming habits of trans aboriginals in the Central African Republic (a made-up scenario, but there are many like it). At some point the baby's going to be thrown out with the bath water until the course is corrected.

> a made-up scenario, but there are many like it)

There are many made-up scenarios, but not many real examples of what you are using to justify the weakening of the entire nation.

And the fact that you had to fabricate something is literally proof of it. Now, go find any supposed "waste" and you'll find that, again, the science has been completely misrepresented to the public by an anti-science media source that was focused on creating fake propaganda rather than properly informing the public.

Seriously. Prove me wrong, go find all this bath water that you claim exists, post it here!

Re: U.S. pulling ocean sensors a 'shock' for Canadian research as El Niño nears

#168

Post by jandrewrogers »

bbbrad wrote: post #4

Read the article, but I'm still not seeing why the U.S. is pulling these sensors. Anyone have any insight?

It doesn't make much sense.

There are massive gaps in our current climate models because we have almost no data about subsurface ocean dynamics. Many of the assumptions about the oceanic environment in climate models were demonstrated to not match empirical measurement a few decades ago but we don't have enough oceanic data to come up with a coherent model for the observed dynamics. Without a plausible model for these dynamics, any predictions made from climate models have a high probability of being significantly incorrect.

These sensor networks were the first step toward collecting some data that would allow us to develop a plausible model for subsurface ocean dynamics. To be clear, we are probably still a couple decades out from this in any case but removing these sensor networks from operation definitely won't help. There are very few efforts to collect this data at scale, I believe this was one of the largest.

Most people don't realize how critical subsurface sensor networks are to building accurate climate models.

Re: U.S. pulling ocean sensors a 'shock' for Canadian research as El Niño nears

#169

Post by throwarayes »

fancyfredbot wrote: post #77

I understand the present US administration would want to stop funding this, and that they have the power to do so. I don't understand how that has led to the sensor network being dismantled. Surely it would have been cheaper to leave it in place and stop maintaining it?

“Have the power”

They have power, but it’s not actually legal. Congress has mandated funds for this array, the administration wants to cripple it beyond repair before any legal action can catch up.

Re: U.S. pulling ocean sensors a 'shock' for Canadian research as El Niño nears

#170

Post by epistasis »

peyton wrote: post #145
naturalmovement wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of collateral damage that could have been avoided if millions weren't being squandered on dubious "science" like studying grooming habits of trans aboriginals in the Central African Republic (a made-up scenario, but there are many like it). At some point the baby's going to be thrown out with the bath water until the course is corrected.

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Give me an example of this supposed phenomenon, because I haven't seen it. And anytime I've heard somebody claim with an actual example, it's been easy to disprove their assertions.
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