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Cheap Iranian drone downed $25M US Army helicopter–maybe by chance

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Re: Cheap Iranian drone downed $25M US Army helicopter–maybe by chance

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you "don't care about missiles." Convenient, because that's the entire argument you've been avoiding this whole time. JCPOA paused enrichment for 15 years and did nothing about the missiles and drones, the exact weapons hitting the every Gulf country, and the second I bring it up you just announce you don't care. And no, that's not a goalpost move, I raised missiles in my very first comment. You're the one who dec…

You mean responding to your point about ICBMs that was obviously wrong? If I were to provide a reasonable argument for you it would be that Iran would have received their money and refused additional diplomatic relations and negotiations and then when the prohibitions expired continued to work on a nuclear bomb. The goalpost was already moved long ago as they moved on to missiles after enrichment was stopped. If it h…

On ICBMs, I acknowledge that error. Iran's nuclear-capable missiles only fly 4,000km, which is IRBM-class. ICBMs require 5,500+km, and Iran isn't there yet.

You build my argument for me: Iran banks the relief, refuses to renegotiate, and resumes the nuclear program when the limits expire in 2030. Then, instead of reasoning about what 2030 actually looks like, you wave it off with "we'll never know." Fine, that's your hypothetical, not your belief. But the expiration on the enrichment restrictions is real. It's a date in the text. Calling the scenario hypothetical doesn't make that date disappear.

And "could have been extended" is carrying enormous weight for you with nothing backing it. There was no extension mechanism in JCPOA. Extending it meant a fresh round of negotiations, and Iran's own officials called the sunsets non-negotiable. So what is Iran's incentive to agree to re-cap enrichment in 2030, after it has already pocketed the relief and the sanctions are long over? "Could have been extended" is something you invented, it was not a feature of the deal. You're defending JCPOA by imagining a better agreement that was never on paper.

So let's actually run your scenario. Assume JCPOA holds. Both sides follow it to the T for the full term. What's is the situation in 2030? Iran has spent fifteen years selling oil freely (with nearly a trillion dollars in cumulative oil revenue) and its frozen assets released and its economy rebuilt. And because the deal said nothing about drones or missiles, it spent those same fifteen years building an enormous arsenal of hundreds of thousands of drones and over ten thousand missiles, several times what it has today. On the nuclear limit, it complied. On drones and missiles, it also complied. Because there was no limit.

And we know what Iran intended to do with that pause, because Iran showed us by what it kept. In 2018 Mossad stole the entire nuclear-weapons archive hidden in a warehouse in Tehran. Iran chose to preserve that archive, it did not destroy it. You don't keep the blueprints for a program you've abandoned. JCPOA failed to end Iran's weapons ambition, it simply kicked the can down the road, leaving a mess for a future president to handle.

Now run the renegotiation you're banking on. It's 2030, the caps have ended, and the US comes to the table. With what? In 2015 the leverage was sanctions relief. In 2030, what does the US have to offer? Iran is flush with cash, it spent the past decade arming, and it has reintegrated itself into the global economy. Iran has no reason to re-cap anything and every reason to walk. "We'll just extend it" assumes you can sell a deal to someone you have no leverage over. You can't. The leverage was already used pursuing JCPOA the first time.

And by 2030 the military option is all but closed too. The Iran of 2030 under JCPOA has a missile and drone arsenal five to ten times the size of what we saw this year. And this year's arsenal was already enough to choke shipping through Hormuz and ensue an oil crisis. An Iran with 5-10x that capability is an Iran with an economic nuke. Iran will have a guaranteed ability to put a chokehold on the global economy, at a far greater scale than the crisis seen today, and the past few months demonstrated Iran is willing to do this. A fully armed Iran has so many missiles and drones that it will overwhelm interceptor defenses even on the first salvo. You witnessed what happened in the 2026 conflict. Interceptors were barely able to keep up, and there was an interceptor shortage crisis. Yet fortunately, in the 2026 conflict, interceptors did not run out, and approximately 80-90% of missiles and drones were intercepted. But an Iran under JCPOA would be able to launch salvos at 5-10x the size, absolutely overwhelming interceptor defenses, and the quantity of destruction would be an order of magnitude greater. There is no defense against that amount of firepower. Striking an Iran sitting on that much firepower and the cost of a military intervention stops being acceptable to anyone.

That's the deal you're defending. And even if JCPOA succeeds, the outcome is still a loss. Follow JCPOA perfectly, and 2030 Iran arrives rich, rearmed, un-leverageable, and legally free to enrich. The cost of any military operation to encourage Iran to comply is astronomically high, making Iran is immune to any conventional military intervention. JCPOA traded away everything the West had to offer: cash, sanctions relief, and oil market access; in exchange for a temporary enrichment pause and a prisoner swap. JCPOA never resolved anything, and simply kicked the can down the road for a future administration to deal with, from a far worse negotiating position.

Re: Cheap Iranian drone downed $25M US Army helicopter–maybe by chance

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disputed? Its pretty clear that US took the money and didn't deliver goods. The rest is Irans own money sitting in Irans own accounts that sanctions prohibited them from moving or using. Is your reasoning that the US paid Iran with Irans own money because they didn't decide to steal their money? You realize how insane this makes you look? The deal was a first step in normalizing diplomatic relations with Iran, it was…

Thanks for being a voice of reason. It's pretty clear the person you're responding is repeating talking points they only support because their cult demands that of them.

Practically everyone defending JCPOA does not understand what the US/Iran actually agreed to, and those who do understand realize the deal was a ticking time bomb towards a nuclear Iran.

Re: Cheap Iranian drone downed $25M US Army helicopter–maybe by chance

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean responding to your point about ICBMs that was obviously wrong? If I were to provide a reasonable argument for you it would be that Iran would have received their money and refused additional diplomatic relations and negotiations and then when the prohibitions expired continued to work on a nuclear bomb. The goalpost was already moved long ago as they moved on to missiles after enrichment was stopped. If it h…

On ICBMs, I acknowledge that error. Iran's nuclear-capable missiles only fly 4,000km, which is IRBM-class. ICBMs require 5,500+km, and Iran isn't there yet. You build my argument for me: Iran banks the relief, refuses to renegotiate, and resumes the nuclear program when the limits expire in 2030. Then, instead of reasoning about what 2030 actually looks like, you wave it off with "we'll never know." Fine, that's your…

Seems like the deal were getting now is that Iran is being paid (your words) 25B (many times what Obama paid them), basically the same nuclear restrictions (but no inspections?), nothing about missiles.

Art of the deal, lol.

Re: Cheap Iranian drone downed $25M US Army helicopter–maybe by chance

#164
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it really need to be said that the Geneva convention rule about collective punishment does not apply to your gas bill? Yes, what happens in the world affects you. How unfair!

I said nothing about gas bills. You should not punish all the children in a murderer's city because the murderer doing bad things means you're allowed to do bad things. That's not how ethics works. We give the state the ability to mete out punishment in cases where that punishment or the threat of that punishment helps the citizens' safety. Administering collective punishment does the opposite.

Of course you should. You should try to avoid it, of course, but not at the cost of others.

Re: Cheap Iranian drone downed $25M US Army helicopter–maybe by chance

#165
post #160
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they're on Amazon for like 350 bucks.

Where are you finding ML-grade GPUs that you can actually use to train a modern model for *$350*!? Dude, let me know so I can find some.

They’re referring to the Jetsons I mentioned, GPU boards. They do the operational part, not model training.

Re: Cheap Iranian drone downed $25M US Army helicopter–maybe by chance

#166
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said nothing about gas bills. You should not punish all the children in a murderer's city because the murderer doing bad things means you're allowed to do bad things. That's not how ethics works. We give the state the ability to mete out punishment in cases where that punishment or the threat of that punishment helps the citizens' safety. Administering collective punishment does the opposite.

Of course you should. You should try to avoid it, of course, but not at the cost of others.

I'm sorry, are you saying that you should punish all the children in a murderer's city? Would you like to clarify that?
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