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Age verification tech could put children at greater risk, says think tank

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Re: Age verification tech could put children at greater risk, says think tank

#161

Post by mothballed »

nativeit wrote: post #157
mothballed wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can order cigars, loose tobacco and rolling papers, and wine straight to your house without any ID check, all completely legal. I did it as a minor and you can still do it today (well today you can also add "CBD" on to that list). The truth is there is no meaningful controls on teenage minors getting access to tobacco and alcohol. The limitations used are just window dressing for Karen to pretend like the governm…

They should (and frequently do) require ID for delivery. The postal carrier will literally check ID before delivering the package. It costs about $8 extra. Any company that’s not using these services is exposed to some dire consequences if/when ATF comes knocking.

In practice USPS carriers everywhere I've lived completely ignore the check and drop it straight in the box. Good luck getting the government to prosecute themselves, particularly when ATF needs USPS for investigations against private individuals. And AFAIK, since the carrier requested to check the ID has no idea what's actually in the package, there's no mens rea to even prosecute them.

It's a legal loophole where the seller requests the check but the person delivering it has no binding liability to do so and they simply will not because it takes extra time. The economics practically guarantee the check won't be performed and the interface mechanics of carrier-seller means there's no practical way to prosecute either party when the carrier doesn't perform a requested ID check.

Re: Age verification tech could put children at greater risk, says think tank

#162

Post by baobabKoodaa »

Scroll_Swe wrote: post #20

It's not about the children, never was. The goal is to use one ID system for everything. I sound like Alex Jones, but we already have a system for bank login, and other trusted identity login. They want to use this for everything.

This is already reality in Finland. Want to schedule a doctor's appointment? Bank ID. Want to pay your taxes? Ban ID. Want to check your pension? Bank ID. The worst part of it is that a significant swathe of the population does not have access to bank ID, so they can't access these services anymore. It's a kafkaesque dystopia that is going places that I never thought would be possible.

Re: Age verification tech could put children at greater risk, says think tank

#163

Post by rayiner »

mothballed wrote: post #129
rayiner wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The generations of parents who came up with the original bridge hypothetical also worked to have the government ban alcohol and cigarette sales to minors.

You can order cigars, loose tobacco and rolling papers, and wine straight to your house without any ID check, all completely legal. I did it as a minor and you can still do it today (well today you can also add "CBD" on to that list). The truth is there is no meaningful controls on teenage minors getting access to tobacco and alcohol. The limitations used are just window dressing for Karen to pretend like the governm…

For most of the time these laws have been in place--since the late 1800s--you had to buy alcohol and tobacco in person. You couldn't bypass the law through shady Internet dealers.

Re: Age verification tech could put children at greater risk, says think tank

#164

Post by anal_reactor »

Jzush wrote: post #151

People are worried about tech companies collecting data on minors, so they ban tech companies from collecting data on minors. Tech companies rally behind "Age Verification" laws so they can collect data on minors again under the guise of protecting minors. The people who don't understand why that's a bad thing count it as a win and we're right back where we started.

Yes. It's astounding how stupid average voter is.

Re: Age verification tech could put children at greater risk, says think tank

#165

Post by Markoff »

tombot wrote: post #53
akramachamarei wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dumbphones are still a thing

I really don’t know why there isn’t a brand that’s capitalising on this. Messaging, calls, maps, notes but no way to take or view images. Marketed simply from a global brand.

there is, pretty much every single smartphone brand offers parental controls

nobody stops you from limiting your kid to bunch of whitelisted apps, for instance whatsapp (it has parental controls as well), duolingo, wikipedia, phone, SMS, calculator, maps, flashlight, sudoku, chess, camera

not exactly sure why you wanna ban cameras

Re: Age verification tech could put children at greater risk, says think tank

#166

Post by mothballed »

rayiner wrote: post #163
mothballed wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can order cigars, loose tobacco and rolling papers, and wine straight to your house without any ID check, all completely legal. I did it as a minor and you can still do it today (well today you can also add "CBD" on to that list). The truth is there is no meaningful controls on teenage minors getting access to tobacco and alcohol. The limitations used are just window dressing for Karen to pretend like the governm…

For most of the time these laws have been in place--since the late 1800s--you had to buy alcohol and tobacco in person. You couldn't bypass the law through shady Internet dealers.

Mail order tobacco has been a thing since practically the mail existed.

https://www.periodpaper.com/cdn/shop/products/EM2_315_1200x1...

The last time I ordered some tobacco a major, non-shady, licensed vendor literally had USPS pick it up and drop it straight in my mailbox.

Re: Age verification tech could put children at greater risk, says think tank

#167

Post by [deleted] »

mothballed wrote: post #161
nativeit wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should (and frequently do) require ID for delivery. The postal carrier will literally check ID before delivering the package. It costs about $8 extra. Any company that’s not using these services is exposed to some dire consequences if/when ATF comes knocking.

In practice USPS carriers everywhere I've lived completely ignore the check and drop it straight in the box. Good luck getting the government to prosecute themselves, particularly when ATF needs USPS for investigations against private individuals. And AFAIK, since the carrier requested to check the ID has no idea what's actually in the package, there's no mens rea to even prosecute them. It's a legal loophole where t…

[deleted]

Re: Age verification tech could put children at greater risk, says think tank

#168

Post by rayiner »

mothballed wrote: post #166
rayiner wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For most of the time these laws have been in place--since the late 1800s--you had to buy alcohol and tobacco in person. You couldn't bypass the law through shady Internet dealers.

Mail order tobacco has been a thing since practically the mail existed. https://www.periodpaper.com/cdn/shop/products/EM2_315_1200x1... The last time I ordered some tobacco a major, non-shady, licensed vendor literally had USPS pick it up and drop it straight in my mailbox.

Mail order back then involved checks or money orders, which minors would not have had easy access to, or cash on delivery, which would have involved an interaction with a postal deliveryman.

Moreover, the point of these laws isn't to prevent any particular illegal sale. It's to eliminate the market and reduce the volume. In-person, cash transactions are difficult for parents to track. But most kids aren't going to risk their parents finding credit card charges from mail-order alcohol and tobacco vendors. If a large fraction of kids were actually using that loophole, then enforcement of those laws would be a higher priority, like it is with in-person sales.

Product bans do, in fact, work. For example, sports betting has skyrocketed since the Supreme Court overturned a ban on online gambling: https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2026/01/sports-bettin....

Re: Age verification tech could put children at greater risk, says think tank

#169

Post by Broken_Hippo »

Tade0 wrote: post #58
Hugsbox wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I relate to this quite a lot, to be honest. There has to be some happy medium somewhere, though.

The happy middle is you not using social media, or smartphones for that matter, in front of them. Kids scrutinize everything you say and do and will notice the discrepancy.

My parents didn't watch scary movies, eat hard candy, have sex, wander the area cornfields without supervision, or smoke pot in front of me, yet I still did it. (these were at different ages, of course)

Not doing something isn't enough. If your kids know about something, it isn't always going to matter what you do. If I were smart enough to know different folks did different things, I'm guessing other children are as well.

Re: Age verification tech could put children at greater risk, says think tank

#170

Post by Broken_Hippo »

Tade0 wrote: post #55
Hugsbox wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this I will seriously never understand. When I was a kid, if my mother didn't want me doing something then she would make sure I couldn't do it. Is nobody parenting their children anymore? Do they just let them do whatever they want these days? I've got a 2 year old of my own and can't imagine just handing him an iPad and ignoring him all day like I see other parents do. I can't tell if it's laziness, or ignora…

Co-working space coworker went once to a school to teach kids about online safety and such. One of the exercises was to check out what you can and can't do with a locked-down smartphone. Several minutes later the kids figured out how to bypass parental controls using ChatGPT and the method spread like wildfire. I recall defying my father's orders regularly. Teenagers who set their mind to something can be amazingly p…

Not just teens. If you are overly strict, this stuff will begin in elementary school.
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