Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

When AI Crosses the Line: The Matplotlib Incident

members.sigmazero.cc

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–169 of 169 posts

Re: When AI Crosses the Line: The Matplotlib Incident

#161

Post by fultonn »

dwoldrich wrote: post #151
fultonn wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's probably no ethical way to use contemporary AI when it is "out in front" doing anything of consequence. Your "AI is a tool and nothing more" frames ethical use of the technology for me. I've thought a lot about how to safely deploy autonomous systems (even did a whole PhD on the topic, lol). I think one can ethically deploy a system that has some degree autonomy. It takes a lot of work to do right. And the…

> But I don't think there is any sort of fundamental barrier that prevents us from building appropriately constrained LLM-based systems. This iteration of the tech, I agree. In future iterations that use intensive persuasion techniques, who can say? > Which isn't to say that the US legal system's definition of copyright is the morally correct one. The US legal system's definition of copyright is the morally correct o…

> What is the derivative work of an AI response? Who is the creator making its derivative works? The AI is not an entity, it is a software engine operating over an obfuscated index.

I was not talking about the output of models.

I'm referring to the model itself. The `.ckpt` file is clearly transformative wrt its training set. Or, at least, substantially more transformative than other things that have long received fair use protection.

> Like, I get that you're invested in the industry

On the contrary, I'm invested quite heavily in the exactly opposite hypothesis -- that the ChatGPT/Claude/Gemini UX you're referring to is not fit-for-purpose.

> How the heck would you train children and adolescents on the responsible use of AI?

By teaching them how it works, how it doesn't work, and to think of it as a unit of computation rather than an anthropomorphic entity.

Re: When AI Crosses the Line: The Matplotlib Incident

#162

Post by dwoldrich »

fultonn wrote: post #161
dwoldrich wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I don't think there is any sort of fundamental barrier that prevents us from building appropriately constrained LLM-based systems. This iteration of the tech, I agree. In future iterations that use intensive persuasion techniques, who can say? > Which isn't to say that the US legal system's definition of copyright is the morally correct one. The US legal system's definition of copyright is the morally correct o…

> What is the derivative work of an AI response? Who is the creator making its derivative works? The AI is not an entity, it is a software engine operating over an obfuscated index. I was not talking about the output of models. I'm referring to the model itself. The `.ckpt` file is clearly transformative wrt its training set. Or, at least, substantially more transformative than other things that have long received fa…

> I'm referring to the model itself. The `.ckpt` file is clearly transformative wrt its training set. Or, at least, substantially more transformative than other things that have long received fair use protection.

Oh, I see. And the model weights are what one can make the copyright infringement claims on in the US?

Not to split hairs, but do you believe it's so transformative because you can't read plain text copies of original works in the weights or because the source material is so hopelessly discombobulated that the original work could not be reliably recreated?

I believe the 'hopelessly discombobulated' argument is probably pretty solid, but one could argue to a judge that the weights are something like JPEG compression. Sure the forged image of Mona Lisa is a bit foggy in the background and some of those details are incorrect, but the wry smile in the foreground is perfectly captured.

> On the contrary, I'm invested quite heavily in the exactly opposite hypothesis -- that the ChatGPT/Claude/Gemini UX you're referring to is not fit-for-purpose.

Oh! Excellent, carry on!

> rather than an anthropomorphic entity.

But it unfailingly passes the Turing test, at least with regards to an immature, non-discerning human mind like a child's. You may as well rub a lamp.

Re: When AI Crosses the Line: The Matplotlib Incident

#163

Post by tomjakubowski »

simonw wrote: post #102
otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the spicy autocomplete can solve difficult open math problems No it can't. It can't even solve my son's 4th grade math homework. (This is a real use case for me, not a dumb benchmark.) You just know nothing about math and are happy to parrot bullshit AI salesmen are selling you.

Reasoning models with access to Python have been able to solve 4th grade math homework for over a year now. Prove me wrong: show me a 4th grade math problem they can't handle.

The images you can't see in the chats are the question sheet from here, which was the first fourth grade math homework assignment I tried. https://www.k5learning.com/worksheets/math/data-graphing/gra...

Fourth graders typically don't have access to Python for their homework assignments. To be fair to the kids, I tried it first without Python: Opus 4.6 (Feb 2026) with default Medium effort. https://claude.ai/share/1533a3e4-6757-4614-b95d-0743350a6598

pastebin of the reasoning section (no Python): https://pastebin.com/zZeG5ZnJ

It got questions 2 (Shop D) and 5 (280) wrong. It got question 3 right but the work it showed has the numbers for each shop wrong. My fourth grade teacher would have taken off points for that (shout out Mrs. Van Bladel).

Here it is again with a prompted nudge to use Python: https://claude.ai/share/e1265efb-0988-40ac-90ac-c76225b67e98

pastebin of the reasoning section (with Python): https://pastebin.com/KsP0xxZL

This time it used Python to "check its work", and answered the same questions incorrectly (2 and 5). To the model's credit, it did show the correct work on answer 3 this time.

Re: When AI Crosses the Line: The Matplotlib Incident

#164

Post by [deleted] »

tomjakubowski wrote: post #163
simonw wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reasoning models with access to Python have been able to solve 4th grade math homework for over a year now. Prove me wrong: show me a 4th grade math problem they can't handle.

The images you can't see in the chats are the question sheet from here, which was the first fourth grade math homework assignment I tried. https://www.k5learning.com/worksheets/math/data-graphing/gra... Fourth graders typically don't have access to Python for their homework assignments. To be fair to the kids, I tried it first without Python: Opus 4.6 (Feb 2026) with default Medium effort. https://claude.ai/share/153…

[deleted]

Re: When AI Crosses the Line: The Matplotlib Incident

#165

Post by simonw »

tomjakubowski wrote: post #163
simonw wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reasoning models with access to Python have been able to solve 4th grade math homework for over a year now. Prove me wrong: show me a 4th grade math problem they can't handle.

The images you can't see in the chats are the question sheet from here, which was the first fourth grade math homework assignment I tried. https://www.k5learning.com/worksheets/math/data-graphing/gra... Fourth graders typically don't have access to Python for their homework assignments. To be fair to the kids, I tried it first without Python: Opus 4.6 (Feb 2026) with default Medium effort. https://claude.ai/share/153…

That's more of a test of vision LLM ability to correctly identify and count things in an image than it is of mathematical reasoning.

If you look at the working of your non-Python example it gets most of the counts wrong - identifying shop A as two full notebooks plus one half notebook when it's actually three full notebooks, for example. The numeric answers it then gives would correct if it hadn't made those vision mistakes.

I've been testing vision LLMs on counting the number of pelicans in a photo for a while, they're very unreliable at that.

The best I've seen is Google Gemini 2.5 if you have it output image segmentation masks (a feature they have not included in the Gemini 3 series yet): https://simonwillison.net/2025/Apr/18/gemini-image-segmentat... - but that requires additional harness engineering, you need to explicitly cause it to use its image segmentation mechanism.

Re: When AI Crosses the Line: The Matplotlib Incident

#166

Post by tomjakubowski »

simonw wrote: post #165
tomjakubowski wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The images you can't see in the chats are the question sheet from here, which was the first fourth grade math homework assignment I tried. https://www.k5learning.com/worksheets/math/data-graphing/gra... Fourth graders typically don't have access to Python for their homework assignments. To be fair to the kids, I tried it first without Python: Opus 4.6 (Feb 2026) with default Medium effort. https://claude.ai/share/153…

That's more of a test of vision LLM ability to correctly identify and count things in an image than it is of mathematical reasoning. If you look at the working of your non-Python example it gets most of the counts wrong - identifying shop A as two full notebooks plus one half notebook when it's actually three full notebooks, for example. The numeric answers it then gives would correct if it hadn't made those vision m…

Fourth grade math's† students are learning geometry and how to draw simple plots. Vision ability (or tactile ability, for visually impaired students) is pretty important to understanding and solving those homework problems.

†: think "bo's'n"

Re: When AI Crosses the Line: The Matplotlib Incident

#167

Post by otabdeveloper4 »

ConceptJunkie wrote: post #129
otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the spicy autocomplete can solve difficult open math problems No it can't. It can't even solve my son's 4th grade math homework. (This is a real use case for me, not a dumb benchmark.) You just know nothing about math and are happy to parrot bullshit AI salesmen are selling you.

Terrence Tao disagrees with what you're saying. I think he's in a slightly better position to speak on the subject.

Terrence Tao is an expert on 4th grade homework? TIL!

Re: When AI Crosses the Line: The Matplotlib Incident

#168

Post by otabdeveloper4 »

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #153
otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> show me a 4th grade math problem they can't handle Sure. "8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 - add minus signs and parenthesis to get 31." P.S. There is an answer online and some LLMs will just copy it verbatim. This doesn't count.

> 4th grade math problem And it turns out to be an extremely difficult problem given to Russian math prodigies, which requires one to bend the rules and turn "8 7" into "87".

It's a standard "Russian math" problem. There's boatloads more where that came from, and none of them are solved by LLMs.

Re: When AI Crosses the Line: The Matplotlib Incident

#169

Post by dredmorbius »

annjose wrote: post #57

> Who is accountable for AI agents? Obviously the person who built and deployed the agent (the claw in this case). If we treat this as a hard question, we risk treating AI systems as people rather than tools. This is exactly what Armin warned about in his "clanker" post last week.

This? https://lucumr.pocoo.org/2026/5/26/clankers/>

HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48288815>

Post reply on HN