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The seed oil panic is hurting my cardiac patients

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Re: The seed oil panic is hurting my cardiac patients

#161

Post by jandrewrogers »

analog31 wrote: post #129
lithocarpus wrote: post #110

> There’s a secondary argument about oxidation — seed oils go rancid at high heat, producing potentially harmful compounds. This idea is chemically real and worth being thoughtful about (don’t reuse frying oil repeatedly). But the evidence that oxidation at home-cooking levels causes measurable harm in humans isn’t there. Even if oxidation at home-cooking levels doesn't cause harm, which I suspect that it does though…

I work in an area that involves, among many other things, analysis of cooking oil in factories. It might be hard to pin down the terminology of "reused" frying oil, because many of the frying processes are continuous. The raw material goes through a vat of hot oil on a conveyer and comes out the other end dripping with oil The quality of the oil is continuously monitored, and new oil goes in while old oil goes out in…

Analogous is the label on vodkas that says “distilled N times”, as if they were making it in batches using pot stills.

Vodka is made almost exclusively in industrial-scale continuous fractionating columns. The concept of it being “distilled N times” is farcical. (But technically defensible because you can map the output of the fractionating column to any arbitrary N via equivalence relationships.)

Re: The seed oil panic is hurting my cardiac patients

#162

Post by dualvariable »

analog31 wrote: post #131
aliasxneo wrote: post #70

Seed oils tend to cause severe inflammation in my body like most other ultra-processed foods. This is more than conjecture, due to existing health conditions, I keep a very strict diet with a food journal. I was excluding them long before RFK Jr. came around with the MAHA stuff. Yet another thing thats been politicized I guess.

I keep reading about "inflammation" and think about things like swollen joints, bruises, etc. It must mean something else. What would I notice in my body if the oils that I consume are causing severe inflammation?

I notice that my allergies get worse, and a theory is that systemic low-grade inflammation and histamine response may be due to diet. I don't have a lot of other conditions, but people with autoimmune conditions (e.g. rheumatoid arthritis) might see it get better/worse with dietary changes.

When I'm eating beans+rice and a bit of protein that I cook myself, my allergies are a lot lower.

When I cheat and eat "crap" I tend to start sneezing and rubbing my eyes.

There are a lot of variables, though, and cheat foods tend to be highly processed, high in gluten, with a lot of additives and made with seed oils, and hidden sugars, and are much higher glycemic index with higher glycemic loading, amongst other things. Plus seasonal allergies are just variable day-to-day which is another confounding factor. So I don't really know what the X factor is. I get similar effects on an atkins-style high fat beef, butter and cheese kind of diet, because it also cuts out most of those things.

Re: The seed oil panic is hurting my cardiac patients

#163

Post by aliasxneo »

dualvariable wrote: post #162
analog31 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep reading about "inflammation" and think about things like swollen joints, bruises, etc. It must mean something else. What would I notice in my body if the oils that I consume are causing severe inflammation?

I notice that my allergies get worse, and a theory is that systemic low-grade inflammation and histamine response may be due to diet. I don't have a lot of other conditions, but people with autoimmune conditions (e.g. rheumatoid arthritis) might see it get better/worse with dietary changes. When I'm eating beans+rice and a bit of protein that I cook myself, my allergies are a lot lower. When I cheat and eat "crap" I…

My theory is that the inflammation simply high-jacks your body's attention. Meaning, it has to spend more time dealing with it as opposed to handling other conditions. I don't strongly believe that chronic inflammation is the direct causal effect of many of my health symptoms, but I do strongly believe that, overall, it makes them significantly worse than they need to be.

Re: The seed oil panic is hurting my cardiac patients

#164

Post by knollimar »

sinuhe69 wrote: post #89
Spide_r wrote: post #17

This has a lot of ai-isms, wish they would share the pre-rewrite draft at this point.

Zero-GPT says it's human written, with a fairly low score of 11.4% for AI. I think I should mention this, as some people seem to try to kill the piece by branding it AI-ism.

[dead]

Re: The seed oil panic is hurting my cardiac patients

#165

Post by 3eb7988a1663 »

joha4270 wrote: post #143
3eb7988a1663 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a per-calorie basis, yes. Animal protein requires 10x the input of what you get back: 100 calories of chicken requires 1000 calories of feed. Now what we feed livestock is unlikely what most people would want to consume, but the systems are in place to allow such a transition. Last time I looked it up, the US produces something like a ~million+~ kilograms of corn for every person in the country. Edit: it was point…

I think you have misplaced a unit somewhere, because that would be a truly absurd amount of corn. A quick trip past wikipedia [1] suggest the figure was 383.6 million tonnes in 2021, which is still approximately a thousand kilograms of corn per person, which is still a lot (more than my annual consumption, that's for sure) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_production_in_the_United_...

Hmmm, sure enough. What's three orders of magnitude between friends?

Re: The seed oil panic is hurting my cardiac patients

#166

Post by kstrauser »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #133
pessimizer wrote: post #52

> A 2020 Cochrane meta-analysis of roughly 59,000 participants across 15 randomized controlled trials found that replacing saturated fat with polyunsaturated fat reduced combined cardiovascular events by 21%. Cardiologists note that the risk reduction from this dietary substitution is comparable to the benefits of statin medications. We don’t make a habit of telling statin patients to stop their medication because of…

"Nutrition science is absolute garbage, [so I'll base my position on something worse.]" So, emotions and preferences? Btw, statins show a big difference if you take them early. Even more for people who have genetically low lipids. People tend to only go on statins in middle/old age, especially after an adverse event, after decades of accumulated plaque build up which statins can't reverse. Rosuvastatin costs $5/mo an…

Yep. A friend’s a cardiologist who told me about attending a lecture on statins at a conference. The speaker asked how many doctors in the audience started taking statins even before having indications that they should take them. Nearly everyone in the audience raised their hand.

What that tells me is that people who do this for a living, who study the actual science, who make a career of this very specific thing, all believe in statins enough to self-medicate.

That didn’t make me seek them out. What it did do was make me say yes the moment my own doc raised the idea.

Re: The seed oil panic is hurting my cardiac patients

#168

Post by vjsrinivas »

anon84873628 wrote: post #152
erelong wrote: post #35

It seems like carnivores exist and have done things like lost weight and have good medical tests to see the impact of the diet in relation to their health, hence there has been a push to experiment with more animal products in the diet over seed oils / veggies at times

Yes, people putting effort into a "carnivore diet" can be healthy. The problem raised by the article is people continuing to follow their same eating patterns (namely, ultra-processed foods) while the fats have been swapped out.

Externally "healthy". Any heavy red meat and high saturated fat diet can lead to CVD.

Re: The seed oil panic is hurting my cardiac patients

#169

Post by vjsrinivas »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #32
vjsrinivas wrote: post #14

I feel like its another symptom of dying health institutions. These kinds of beliefs also lead people down other ridiculous roads. I've seen the thought process of someone go from: - replacing seed oils with animal-based oils - arguing against the role of LDL in increased CVD and events - building a more animal-centric and meat-heavy diet - using "looks-maxxing" terminology to describe their diet and associated belie…

What happens is that you have to find ways to dismiss the body of evidence to take on positions like "beef tallow and butter are actually amazing for you". e.g. Since saturated fat is well-known to increase LDL/ApoB, and these people have high blood lipids because of it, they have to dismiss the research on it to continue believing it's healthy. It further entrenches them in a position where they can be convinced of…

Exactly what I was getting at. Social media doesn't help since these algorithms can cocoon somebody from content that might challenge their notions.

Re: The seed oil panic is hurting my cardiac patients

#170

Post by pstuart »

llm_nerd wrote: post #20
declan_roberts wrote: post #11

> Back in the hospital, my patients are replacing olive oil with beef tallow This is a weird thing to call out since olive oil isn't a seed oil. Is the point that patients are confused? Does the author (a purported dietitian) not know this himself/herself?

It really isn't weird, and given the entire rest of the article clearly the author understands. RFK and friends have health-washed tallow. While their ridiculous new food recommendations claimed to "end the war on protein", it's pretty clear by all the surrounding material that they really wanted to "end the war on saturated fats". Their recommendations are filled with saturated-fat heavy foods (while cowardly sticki…

Nutritional science has failed us before -- the low fat movement and the panic over salt. And then there's ye olde Food Pyramid which was marketing for Big Ag.

Another one was the concern of soy phytoestrogens, and claiming that only fermented soy was safe.

Much of this had some scientific basis, but science isn't perfect and evolves.

On the other hand, there's ideology and it rejects any scientific reporting that falsifies its beliefs. Science is about being falsifiable -- so when confronted with compelling evidence that earlier understanding is rejected and replaced with new knowledge.

RFK Jr. is an ideologue and is the worst person to be in the role he is. He may get some things right (food dyes, etc), but that's the broken clock effect.

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