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Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

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Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#161

Post by 1attice »

dismalaf wrote: post #148
cf100clunk wrote: post #113

A related issue is whether, or to what extent, a seceded entity can itself be subject to secession. This concern came up in Quebec when Cree and other groups suggested they'd drop out of post-separation Quebec and ''rejoin'' Canada. Quebec separatists were outraged at the thought of First Nations and pro-Federalist geographical areas turning their new entity into ''Swiss cheese''. It is highly likely that Alberta sep…

> Quebec separatists were outraged at the thought of First Nations and pro-Federalist geographical areas turning their new entity into ''Swiss cheese''. It is highly likely that Alberta separatists would face the same challenges and take an equally dim view. This is complicated by the fact that First Nations themselves are highly stratified. They receive billions in dollars from the federal government with zero overs…

> In Canada there's layers of un-elected government officials and activist judges who seem more concerned with getting federal funding (aka. kickbacks aka. bribes) than any sort of democratic notions.

Citation needed. Good luck

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#162

Post by consumer451 »

wk_end wrote: post #158
nonethewiser wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there actually even a legal process for leaving Canada? I would assume you can't just decide to leave. EDIT: oh, there is a process. thats the Clarity Act. This seems extremely surprising - I've never heard of this sort of thing before with any other country.

> This seems extremely surprising - I've never heard of this sort of thing before with any other country. It's a little surprising - even as a Canadian - if you're unfamiliar with Canadian politics/history/civics, but Canada is more loosely held together than most other countries, including the US. And a comparison with the US is instructive, because Canada's founders were unifying the country the wake of the US Civi…

What surprised me about Canada is that sometimes there are fewer barriers to trade with outside countries, than between provinces! I recall someone saying "Canada needs an internal free trade agreement."

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#163

Post by gausswho »

arrowsmith wrote: post #120
gausswho wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I recall correctly, the Brexit referendum wasn't binding either. When the result ended up the way it did, there was sufficient political capital to push it through without a follow up vote.

The Brexit referendum was non-binding for important constitutional reasons. Legally, leaving required an Act of Parliament. To hold a binding referendum, they would have had to pass an Act that says "here are the exact details of how we'll leave the EU, coming into force if the referendum passes". But that would have required them to figure out all the exact details of what it means to leave the EU, and they didn't b…

Maybe you can help illuminate something that confused me about the result of the referendum. I thought it was worded such that voting yes would lead to a committee determining the details, and that that would lead to a second referendum? It felt like the UK population was tricked into voting for a 'sure I'll hear out your plan' which then turned into 'cool, we'll make a plan and then begin implementing it'.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#164

Post by cf100clunk »

swader999 wrote: post #145
cf100clunk wrote: post #98

Some numbers to consider: ~465,000 legally verified signatories to the federalist petition to declare Alberta permanently part of Canada ~360,000 status First Nations persons within Alberta ~330,000 legally unverified signatories to the separatist petition to hold a referendum to separate from Canada First Nations have successfully argued in court that as consultations with them are required by the Canadian Constitut…

They are already separate first nations not joined to Canada or Alberta. I don't understand why Alberta not wanting to participate in Federalism anymore is an issue.

> They are already separate first nations not joined to Canada or Alberta

They are part of Canada.

Treaties 6, 7, and 8 clearly ceded indigenous lands to the Crown, and the Indian Act spells out the relationship between First Nations and Canada. Further, the Constitution Act, 1982, contains Section 25 of the Charter Of Rights And Freedoms articulating ''Aboriginal And Treaty Rights''

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#165

Post by bluefirebrand »

cwillu wrote: post #109
zenethian wrote: post #14

As a Minnesotan I would gladly trade Alberta for Minnesota and become Canadian.

While I appreciate the sentiment, that would be condemning a great many Albertans who want nothing to do with separation to a fate I would rather not see a fellow Canadian faced with.

As long as Minnesota would have me I'd happily move there instead of staying in Alberta if this were to happen

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#166

Post by tandr »

cwillu wrote: post #72
armenarmen wrote: post #28

I met a Québécois woman years ago that said their own independence movement was shut down in part because of new immigrants to Canada not wanting to leave the commonwealth. No clue if that’s right or not. But given how much of a cash cow the western provinces are for Canada, and the mega spike in immigration it makes me wonder

Net federal tax by province for 2024: East: ON: 92,392M QC: 43,549M NS: 4,464M NB: 5,167M NL: 2,467M PE: 680M West: BC: 33,037M AB: 29,900M SK: 5,579M MB: 5,745M North: NT: 273M NU: 162M YT: 254M To call the west a “cash cow” is just a bit misleading, even if you grant the separatists British Columbia, which is frankly a laughable notion.

Would you be kind and recalculate this per person in each province? Thank you!

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#167

Post by kubafu »

madcaptenor wrote: post #141
cf100clunk wrote: post #113

A related issue is whether, or to what extent, a seceded entity can itself be subject to secession. This concern came up in Quebec when Cree and other groups suggested they'd drop out of post-separation Quebec and ''rejoin'' Canada. Quebec separatists were outraged at the thought of First Nations and pro-Federalist geographical areas turning their new entity into ''Swiss cheese''. It is highly likely that Alberta sep…

Another case: when Brexit happened, IIRC some people in Scotland were suggesting secession from the UK post-Brexit so they could rejoin the EU.

In a parallel universe - UK never left EU as Scotland, Northern Ireland, and City of London kicked out England and Wales out of UK, and saved everyone years of turmoil.

/sarcasm

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#168

Post by amilios »

blululu wrote: post #45
vkou wrote: post #2

And do what? There is no 'Albertan' national identity, like there is in Quebec, or Ukraine, or Taiwan or Ireland. You can't build an independent nation around something that is only wanted by a single political party, who have no fucking idea of how to include everyone who isn't a Tory on board with their project. Trace it back a bit, and you'll find that there's nothing to this that isn't driven by the Department of…

Québécois separatism is also driven by a single party with no plan for what to do with all the other groups. I also don’t think that an independent Quebec would be a good idea, but they have leveraged the idea to get equalization payments and increased voting rights. These concessions largely come at the expense of Alberta, so it shouldn’t be hard to see why people would be frustrated without any cia operations.

At least Quebec actually does have a distinct nation/culture/ethnicity/language.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#169

Post by slopinthebag »

What I find interesting as a neutral observer is how people's views are often based on their own personal opinions about the country and region, and not the principles of democracy and the human right of self-determination. It seems like, if you like the country then you are a federalist and the separatists are traitors, anti-democratic, etc. If you don't like the country, the separatists are freedom fighters, and it's the federalists who are anti-democratic.

I guess this makes sense, since the traitor/seditionist and freedom-fighter/revolutionary labels are entirely dependant on your affiliation with the associated country. But a lot of Americans have strong negative reactions to this idea, or the idea of Brexit, but almost certainly support their own founding fathers who were likewise traitors to the British Empire.

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