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Pope Leo XIV’s first encyclical Magnifica humanitas to be published May 25

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Re: Pope Leo XIV’s first encyclical Magnifica humanitas to be published May 25

#161

Post by graemep »

orochimaaru wrote: post #30
ilaksh wrote: post #18

I'm an atheist, but most of what I have heard from popes in recent years seems like sound and possibly needed advice. Also, even though I feel AI and robotics are very important for progressing humanity, I think that much of the world has long since lost a proper sense of intrinsic human value. It's really gone from overt exploitation to slightly more mild exploitation where we pretend the system is really merit base…

Human value has rarely existed. Pre-industrial world didn't have much human value. Your were a lord or a serf. There was not much in between. A lord's life had value, a serf's value was nothing. Post-industrial world needed human capital. Hence, the need for human value. If you notice most of this "need" has arisen out of then need for industrial expansion. Post-AI will be interesting. Will we go back to pre-industri…

> Pre-industrial world didn't have much human value. Your were a lord or a serf. There was not much in between. A lord's life had value, a serf's value was nothing.

Not true. Serfs had rights that varied a lot between societies and over time. Religions mostly teach a value of human life, and Christianity teaches equal value: "when Adam devlved and Eve span who was then the gentleman", or "the first shall be last and the last shall be first" or "it is easier for a rich map to pass through the eye of the needle".

There were all sorts of people in between. Free people who were not serfs. Skilled people who were members of guilds.

Re: Pope Leo XIV’s first encyclical Magnifica humanitas to be published May 25

#162

Post by graemep »

orochimaaru wrote: post #76
swatcoder wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's telling how blithely you're missing the point of what the pope(s) mean by human value. Their intended meaning is that far gone from modern consciousness, even among people who meant to champion some kind of human value themselves. They're not talking about the economic value of humans or even the psychological value of humans as subjects with experiences and a right to liberty or care or something. The idea they…

What rot. Tell that to native Americans who were forcibly converted and enslaved. Tell that to people in the inquisition. Tell that to peoples in India and the east that were forcibly converted so that the pope could fill his coffers. Tell that to all the children murdered in Christian and catholic schools. Christianity and Catholicism doesn’t fool me. If you’ve ever wanted to see the mythical devil - look to those p…

> Tell that to native Americans who were forcibly converted and enslaved.

Tell that to those were were protects by the influence of the Church. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protector_of_the_Indians

> Tell that to people in the inquisition.

Which inquisition? Do you by any chance mean the Spanish Inquisition? An agency of the Spanish government.

> Tell that to peoples in India and the east that were forcibly converted so that the pope could fill his coffers

Which people. There were Christians in India for 2,000 years. Some of my ancestors probably converted before the English did.

> Tell that to all the children murdered in Christian and catholic schools.

AFAIK these are mostly allegations that have never ben substantiated.

Re: Pope Leo XIV’s first encyclical Magnifica humanitas to be published May 25

#163

Post by graemep »

jdkoeck wrote: post #56
ilaksh wrote: post #18

I'm an atheist, but most of what I have heard from popes in recent years seems like sound and possibly needed advice. Also, even though I feel AI and robotics are very important for progressing humanity, I think that much of the world has long since lost a proper sense of intrinsic human value. It's really gone from overt exploitation to slightly more mild exploitation where we pretend the system is really merit base…

A cursory look at the fall of extreme poverty across the world, over the last few decades, is enough to refute the idea that the world is largely based on exploitation.

A big chunk of it was the improvement in China, which started with a recovery from a previous disastrous decline.

The last 100+ years have also been atypical. Two world wars which disrupted economies in ways that lead to redistribution, huge changes from the end of European empires, the fall of the Soviet Union and communism, and technological advances that automated work but created may new jobs.

I would be very reluctant to assume a continuing trend from that.

Re: Pope Leo XIV’s first encyclical Magnifica humanitas to be published May 25

#164

Post by graemep »

xdennis wrote: post #94
ilaksh wrote: post #18

I'm an atheist, but most of what I have heard from popes in recent years seems like sound and possibly needed advice. Also, even though I feel AI and robotics are very important for progressing humanity, I think that much of the world has long since lost a proper sense of intrinsic human value. It's really gone from overt exploitation to slightly more mild exploitation where we pretend the system is really merit base…

[flagged]

> I'm an atheist too, but I don't think religions should appeal to outsiders.

Why not? When i was an agnostic I liked the Catholic church as an institution (and many other religious organisations too).

> The idea is that by relaxing norms, he wants to gain more members.

That is a ridiculously cynical take. People join the church, and even more the priesthood because they believe. Why would they corrupt the message to get the numbers up?

I do not know what norms have been relaxed by the church anyway? Changing the mass used by the majority of Catholics? Its happened many times historically.

> But it doesn't actually go that way. It alienates the core, and the people for whom compromises are made don't want to join anyway.

I see no sign of alienation except in small fringe groups (so not the "core").

> You can see this with the number of members for Unitarian churches (declining) vs Amish (growing).

The Catholic church is growing globally.

Re: Pope Leo XIV’s first encyclical Magnifica humanitas to be published May 25

#165

Post by monooso »

antinomicus wrote: post #81
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

That last bit is false, you are conflating Zionism and Judaism. Plenty of non weird non colonizer non Zionist Jewish folks.

Disclaimers: atheist, no (informed) opinion regarding GP's comment.

From my outside perspective, Israel's leadership appears to have spent years deliberately conflating Judaism and Zionism.

Re: Pope Leo XIV’s first encyclical Magnifica humanitas to be published May 25

#166

Post by acdha »

ryandrake wrote: post #146
KoolKat23 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great point, further to your point on AI. Another perhaps worse offender is our focus on "the economy", at times the focus is always on "what about the economy?!" Forgetting "the economy" is merely a tool intended to improve the human condition. Sometimes I feel people lose sight of this original intention, be it unintentional or otherwise.

When Media Talking Heads say “the economy,” what they are really talking about is just rich people’s investments and old people’s retirement. Basically, for reporters, the economy = only stocks, bonds, and mutual funds.

I think you’re being unfairly down-voted. While a lot of people here seek out more news, what I see normal people exposed to on TV is basically that – stocks, and if gas prices are high, that and quarterly jobs reports discussed in relation to stocks. To a first approximation, “did your retirement find gain or lose?” really sums it up for all but my father-in-law and the two of us. This is why it’s such a common trope not to think politicians talk about the real economy because your lived experience really varies based on how much stocks affect your life.

Re: Pope Leo XIV’s first encyclical Magnifica humanitas to be published May 25

#167

Post by krige »

joe_mamba wrote: post #137
overfeed wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think religions should appeal to outsiders You'd have made strange bedfellows with cranky Catholics who thought so too, 60 years ago after Vatican II's modernization reforms. > You can see this with the number of members for Unitarian churches (declining) vs Amish (growing). Hold on a sec, you ought to clarify what you mean by "gain more members" - the Amish have a very high birthrate, averaging 6.1 kids pe…

[flagged]

Ah yes, the total failure of checks notes 5 million copies of Slay the Spire 2 sold.

Let it go. It's not healthy. Witch hunts like this are not helping anyone with anything, other than influencer grifters.

Re: Pope Leo XIV’s first encyclical Magnifica humanitas to be published May 25

#168

Post by lotsofpulp »

vasco wrote: post #154
ryandrake wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the Vatican is full of the equivalent of the best PhDs sourced from all over the world centered around their specific topic of interest, theology. I’m sure there are Harry Potter and Lord Of The Rings superfans who have put in a PhD level of time and research into their favorite “topic of interest” as well.

Yeah and if there was a global organization of Harry Potter PhDs that selected the best from all over the world for hundreds of years I'd probably think those guys were smart too and probably wouldn't have surface level takes about adjacent topics.

Given what we know about the origins of Harry Potter, you basically proved ryandrake’s point. Just because you put time into something does not make it worthy of attention.

Religions’ primary purpose is to facilitate tribal bonds, not experimentally seek truths and evaluate data for consistency. That is why almost all start with a set of tenets or immutable “facts”, such as the existence of an immortal component of a person (usually called a soul).

Re: Pope Leo XIV’s first encyclical Magnifica humanitas to be published May 25

#169

Post by analog31 »

swatcoder wrote: post #75
orochimaaru wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Human value has rarely existed. Pre-industrial world didn't have much human value. Your were a lord or a serf. There was not much in between. A lord's life had value, a serf's value was nothing. Post-industrial world needed human capital. Hence, the need for human value. If you notice most of this "need" has arisen out of then need for industrial expansion. Post-AI will be interesting. Will we go back to pre-industri…

It's telling how blithely you're missing the point of what the pope(s) mean by human value. Their intended meaning is that far gone from modern consciousness, even among people who meant to champion some kind of human value themselves. They're not talking about the economic value of humans or even the psychological value of humans as subjects with experiences and a right to liberty or care or something. The idea they…

>>> It's the human value that welcomed slaves, prostitutes, wretches, merchants and kings as peers in something grander than economy or state or lineage or tribe or creed.

This sounds a lot like an appeal to democracy, yet it often seems that religion is at odds with democracy in our world. And given the choice between living in a religious society or a democratic one, I'd choose the democracy any day of the week. Not just for my own prosperity, but for the overall welfare of everybody.

The one thing that has heartened me about the new Pope is that he has spoken favorably about democracy.

Re: Pope Leo XIV’s first encyclical Magnifica humanitas to be published May 25

#170

Post by orochimaaru »

joe_mamba wrote: post #135
orochimaaru wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What rot. Tell that to native Americans who were forcibly converted and enslaved. Tell that to people in the inquisition. Tell that to peoples in India and the east that were forcibly converted so that the pope could fill his coffers. Tell that to all the children murdered in Christian and catholic schools. Christianity and Catholicism doesn’t fool me. If you’ve ever wanted to see the mythical devil - look to those p…

[flagged]

Islam is worse than Christianity. They preach hate to begin with. At least Christianity started peacefully before being consumed by the conversion mafia.

Judaism I have nothing against as a religion. They don’t proselytize.

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