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Palantir employees are starting to wonder if they're the bad guys

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Re: Palantir employees are starting to wonder if they're the bad guys

#161

Post by jdgoesmarching »

Rooster61 wrote: post #21
colechristensen wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have had an active hand in designing weapons at a defense contractor (I was at one time an expert in external ballistics simulation) and I'd feel uncomfortable with the morality of working at Palantir.

How do you reconcile having worked in this capacity mentally? Not being snarky or judgemental, genuinely curious as to the mindset of someone who has been in this position.

As an Army veteran, I try to be accountable for the role I played in an imperial occupying force and use that to inform my decisions in life.

People have a hard time admitting they’ve done bad things that caused pain. I’ve done bad things and I try to not do bad things now. Reconciled.

Re: Palantir employees are starting to wonder if they're the bad guys

#162

Post by Planktonne »

thewebguyd wrote: post #155
Planktonne wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's what they call themselves and what they're currently doing, how much does it matter what the official name is?

Because soft power is a real phenomenon and by going along with the illegal name change, we are giving legitimacy to an illegitimate act. Its anticipatory obedience. Do not obey in advance. It signals to the regime how much power they actually have.

I'd agree in principle, but they're already killing people. The worst-case scenario has been happening for a while; treating this as a procedural stance rather than a description of reality is blinkered.

Re: Palantir employees are starting to wonder if they're the bad guys

#163

Post by kelnos »

elzbardico wrote: post #44
Rooster61 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you reconcile having worked in this capacity mentally? Not being snarky or judgemental, genuinely curious as to the mindset of someone who has been in this position.

There's usually a bit more accountability in using a missile than using palantir systems. At least legally, a missile could only be used in defense or in a war authorized by the congress. Until recently, most of the population believed that the vast majority of America's military actions were somewhat just and legal, for noble reasons. Dark stuff like Palantir was never like that.

> At least legally, a missile could only be used in defense or in a war authorized by the congress.

Some Iranians might disagree with you on that point. They can't, though, as they're dead, killed by missiles used not in defense and not in a war authorized by Congress.

> Until recently, most of the population believed that the vast majority of America's military actions were somewhat just and legal, for noble reasons.

That's naive. The US has been using its military for unjust actions (of dubious legality, often "made legal" after the fact) longer than I've been on this Earth.

Re: Palantir employees are starting to wonder if they're the bad guys

#164

Post by thewebguyd »

palmotea wrote: post #24

> ...about working for a company named after J. R. R. Tolkien’s corrupting all-seeing orb. Wasn't the the problem that Sauron had one so he could corrupt the other users through the orb, but the orb itself was not corrupting?

> he could corrupt the other users through the orb, but the orb itself was not corrupting?

Interestingly enough, the stones could not lie. They only showed real things. Sauron's corruption was achieved through a lack of context. Just like Palantir (the company) can do with data. A dataset can be completely truthful, but lead to a false or manipulative conclusion.

But to the original point, yeah, the name Palantir is spot on for what the company intends to do, anyone who even has remote knowledge of Middle Earth wouldn't dare touch that company with a 10 foot pole.

Re: Palantir employees are starting to wonder if they're the bad guys

#165

Post by 0x3f »

myth_drannon wrote: post #107

Palantir must be working on something amazing if they are constantly assaulted by Iranian/Chinese bots,Left fascists,"but GenOcide in HAZA" and others. Curiously not Boieng, not drone companies, but Palantir. Time to load up on Palantir stocks?

Relative to other government contractors, Palantir is pretty good. More so because the bar is typically so low, though.

But that's priced in.

Them featuring in conspiracy theories is just because there's a cultural treadmill for all these things, isn't there? You can't harp on about Raytheon forever. Those are the villans of the past. Back when Bush was the great evil, or something. To get engagement, you need to frame things in the current meta.

Re: Palantir employees are starting to wonder if they're the bad guys

#166

Post by foobar_______ »

tdb7893 wrote: post #101
Ritewut wrote: post #69

Everyone in this industry should be required to read Careless People by Sara Wynn-Williams about her tenure at Facebook. Not because the book is about how evil Meta/Facebook is as a company but because you get to see the lengths people go to mentally convince themselves they are the good guy. Repeatedly in the book she tries to assure herself she's making the world better and that there's actually an ethical, positiv…

My experience is that people will be able to justify anything that is "normal". I went vegan after learning too much of how the literal sausage is made and the amount of people who have unprompted (people are weird about it so I try to avoid talking about being vegan except for mentioning it quickly while declining food) said something along the lines of "factory farming is awful but I just love bacon" and laugh is l…

This very closely resembles my philosophy. I too downplay vegan/veggie because I don't want to cause a stir.

Re: Palantir employees are starting to wonder if they're the bad guys

#167

Post by colechristensen »

12_throw_away wrote: post #141
palmotea wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you reconcile having worked in this capacity mentally? Not being snarky or judgemental, genuinely curious as to the mindset of someone who has been in this position. I don't work at defense contractor, but it would probably help to imagine the situation Ukraine is in. If no one in the West was comfortable working in this capacity, it would all be Russian territory now (and more besides).

Reading this, I was surprised to learn that I now consider the idea of working on old-school conventional weapons almost, like, quaint. What with all the ways our new military/techno-industrial complex is working to automate murder, surveillance and terror at scale ... it makes me nostalgic for that old-fashioned artisanal state-sanctioned murder, made in small batches by real humans.

You may have gotten caught up in the hype. It's still intelligence, logistics, bullets, missiles, and airplanes (etc.)

The beginnings of "automated murder" were anti-aircraft weapons that implemented a kind of mechanical computer that beat humans in predicting where aircraft were going to be (you have to shoot at where the plane is going to be when your bullets get there). Look up Norbert Wiener.

For a century it's been automation assisted, none of this is new, it's just been improving consistently. They had UAVs in WWI for gods sake. (flying things without people in them, used in war)

Re: Palantir employees are starting to wonder if they're the bad guys

#168

Post by _moof »

ien24sdq wrote: post #84
Ritewut wrote: post #69

Everyone in this industry should be required to read Careless People by Sara Wynn-Williams about her tenure at Facebook. Not because the book is about how evil Meta/Facebook is as a company but because you get to see the lengths people go to mentally convince themselves they are the good guy. Repeatedly in the book she tries to assure herself she's making the world better and that there's actually an ethical, positiv…

This is a really important thing that people on the left in particular seem to consistently overlook: local incentives, emergent corporate behaviors, and the unconscious need to believe you’re “right” have way more explanatory power than “X is actually evil”.

The need for belonging is also really powerful, and companies actively try to fulfill that need. Not, generally speaking, for nefarious purposes, but because people do better work when they feel a sense of belonging.

If you decide that your work is against your values, you're also deciding to separate yourself from the group, even if you don't actually leave the company. That's painful. It's not an excuse, but it is a powerful motivator.

Re: Palantir employees are starting to wonder if they're the bad guys

#169

Post by thewebguyd »

Planktonne wrote: post #162
thewebguyd wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because soft power is a real phenomenon and by going along with the illegal name change, we are giving legitimacy to an illegitimate act. Its anticipatory obedience. Do not obey in advance. It signals to the regime how much power they actually have.

I'd agree in principle, but they're already killing people. The worst-case scenario has been happening for a while; treating this as a procedural stance rather than a description of reality is blinkered.

If we adopt their language because things are already bad we are saying that their power is now the only reality that matters, we are giving up any form of resistance. We killed people under the name of Department of Defense too.

Giving them the name is giving them the legitimacy to continue to justify the violence, and signals to the rest of the population that no one is coming to help and the new order is absolute. Mind you, this is mostly the fault of complicit media going a long with the name change rather than individuals here on HN, but whether its a true description of reality or not isn't important, whats important is any form of resistance to stop giving legitimacy to the regime.

Re: Palantir employees are starting to wonder if they're the bad guys

#170

Post by brodouevencode »

leonidasrup wrote: post #8

Palantir employees should understand that they are not regular employees at a regular company. They are U.S. defense contractors at an U.S. defense company. Also Palantir customers should understand that by buying Palantir services/products they are doing business with U.S. defense company. I don't say that this is positive or negative, it just clarifies the relationships and it should set the expectations.

> Palantir was founded—with initial venture capital investment from the CIA

This was obvious from the start. Not sure why people "are starting to wonder", which I don't believe either.

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