Bring Back the 40-hour work week (March 2012) • Hacker News Board

Re: Bring Back the 40-hour work week (March 2012)

#161

Post by tptacek » Wed, Nov 14, 2012, 2:06 AM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #150

grellas wrote: post #127

The 40-hour week is forever gone in the startup world, and that is simply one of the trade-offs in having moved from a world where big enterprises emphasized long-term relationships with defined pension benefits and health coverage for life to a new world in which such enterprises have faltered and sunk only to be displaced by the startups that disrupted them through technical and other innovations. One can howl at t…

On a technical legal note, U.S. overtime laws have long since institutionalized the 40-hour week for non-exempt (generally lower skilled) employees and that remains the overwhelming norm in the economy. In that sense, there is no need to "bring back" the 40-hour week. It never went away. Except there are now so many exemptions that most of the white-collar working population is "salaried-exempt", and basically subjec…

That's really not true. It's very easy to stumble into a credible claim from an employee that they've been reclassified as overtime-eligible. One easy way to do it is to discipline a team member, or the whole team, by docking pay for coming in late.

Re: Bring Back the 40-hour work week (March 2012)

#162

Post by tptacek » Wed, Nov 14, 2012, 2:07 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #156

grellas wrote: post #127

The 40-hour week is forever gone in the startup world, and that is simply one of the trade-offs in having moved from a world where big enterprises emphasized long-term relationships with defined pension benefits and health coverage for life to a new world in which such enterprises have faltered and sunk only to be displaced by the startups that disrupted them through technical and other innovations. One can howl at t…

It could be a collective action problem. Everybody would be better off if everyone were limited to 40 hour weeks, but nobody wants to take the hit in perception that would result from adopting one on their own.

It's probably not the case that everyone would be better off if work weeks were limited to 40 hours because of the administrative costs of ensuring 40 hour weeks. A statutory 40 hour week works when everyone comes into work at the same time, or when people punch clocks. It's much harder for knowledge workers who drop in and out of "flow" at semi-random times.

Re: Bring Back the 40-hour work week (March 2012)

#163

Post by Domenic_S » Wed, Nov 14, 2012, 2:07 AM UTC

jotux wrote: post #113

jneen wrote: post #81

I've mentioned this before, but it bears repeating, since few people seem to know it. If you are a software engineer or IT professional working in California, and are paid less than about 81K a year or $35/hr, you are legally entitled to extra overtime pay. Definitely something to talk to a manager (or a lawyer) about. See http://www.california-labor-law-attorney.com/it-professional... .

FTA: >If you work in the computer industry and do not fall into any of the exemption categories: administrative, professional, executive or the computer software exemption, you may be entitled to overtime pay. Generally non-exempt employees are entitled to overtime and exempt are not. I believe most software/IT professionals hired full time in CA are exempt employees.

So, it didn't used to be this way (in recent history). IT industry people making less than $75k/yr used to be able to invoke this law. This was iirc in the early 2000s.

FWIW, exempt/non-exempt status has everything to do with what you do and not what you were "hired as" or if you're salaried or not (salaried non-exempt is possible).

Re: Bring Back the 40-hour work week (March 2012)

#164

Post by tptacek » Wed, Nov 14, 2012, 2:08 AM UTC

untog wrote: post #143

grellas wrote: post #127

The 40-hour week is forever gone in the startup world, and that is simply one of the trade-offs in having moved from a world where big enterprises emphasized long-term relationships with defined pension benefits and health coverage for life to a new world in which such enterprises have faltered and sunk only to be displaced by the startups that disrupted them through technical and other innovations. One can howl at t…

an older day where a faithful employee's reward for long-term service was getting a gold watch on retirement or a $10K bonus for having invented the thing that made the employer hundreds of millions You think startups are any different? Unless you are one of the very first employees in a startup that is massively successful, you're not going to benefit financially compared to a job at BigCorp. In fact, the loss of hi…

It's simpler to think about the misaligned incentives issue in terms of compensation rather than in job requirements. The issue with many startup jobs is that they underpay relative to their requirements, and get away with it because candidates have a hard time valuing equity grants in unproven and illiquid companies. But this is a market value problem, not a "40 hour work week" problem.

Re: Bring Back the 40-hour work week (March 2012)

#165

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Nov 14, 2012, 2:10 AM UTC

tatsuke95 wrote: post #132

jwatte wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half high yield bond funds, half blue chip stock funds, bank all earnings, re-balance once a year, and take out 4% a year from total. On average you will do just fine! (Check against history if you want to verify)

> "On average you will do just fine! (Check against history if you want to verify)" Famous last words...

[deleted]

Re: Bring Back the 40-hour work week (March 2012)

#166

Post by tptacek » Wed, Nov 14, 2012, 2:10 AM UTC

untog wrote: post #157

dlss wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just leave for a job at BigCorp?

Personally, I did. I was lucky enough to get a job at a large organisation that is still very interesting and challenging. Not everyone can be so lucky though- startups are often doing more interesting stuff than large companies, so there's an appeal.

There is nothing wrong with the most fun jobs paying less than the most boring jobs; that's just supply and demand. For similar reasons, jobs at game studios tend to suck a lot.

Re: Bring Back the 40-hour work week (March 2012)

#167

Post by lotsofpulp » Wed, Nov 14, 2012, 2:13 AM UTC

jwatte wrote: post #101

throwaway1979 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I knew where to get a risk free, consistent 4% return these days ...

Half high yield bond funds, half blue chip stock funds, bank all earnings, re-balance once a year, and take out 4% a year from total. On average you will do just fine! (Check against history if you want to verify)

Besides the fact that the past does not predict the future, especially with something to do with human nature and economics, if everyone did the same thing, then there would be no return left (after inflation).

Also, some historical data from the S&P 500:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/01/02/business/20110...

Re: Bring Back the 40-hour work week (March 2012)

#168

Post by michaelochurch » Wed, Nov 14, 2012, 2:22 AM UTC

40 hours of metered work, for a programmer, is a ridiculous and onerous expectation.

Let me explain, because I'm not averse to people working hard. I work quite hard as well. By "metered work", I mean the stuff that's requested by bosses and that you're supposed to dedicate your "working time" toward with a singular focus. I include availability (pager duty) as metered work, even if some of that's "down time". Any time you are worrying about bosses or metrics or pagers or status meetings, you're at work.

Metered work obligations should be closer to 20, with the other 20-30+ invested in the stuff we have to do in order to stay relevant: keeping up with new technologies, exploratory side projects, self-directed coding, open source contribution, attending conferences. All of this stuff pays off and is useful work: it just doesn't pay off in the short term or appease a typical manager. 40+ hour metered-work commitments should be reserved for very rare occasions: existential threats to the company, not high-strung middle management.

This would make programming more a real profession, which is what it should be.

Re: Bring Back the 40-hour work week (March 2012)

#169

Post by waqf » Wed, Nov 14, 2012, 2:30 AM UTC

fatbird wrote: post #42

drewblaisdell wrote: post #9

Perhaps this is a good thread to pose this question. I am a front-end engineer in my early twenties. Right now, 40+ hours a week is doable and I am paid well, but I don't need all of the money I'm earning. I would gladly take a 50% salary cut and work ~20 hours a week. The only problem with this is that I feel like this is a risky thing to bring up with an employer. Has anyone ever had any success getting a good part…

Few employers are open to ideas like this. At the end of the day, they might make a concession to keep you happy if you're valuable, but few businesses want to structure themselves to operate in this fashion. However, you can accomplish something similar. If you only want half your salary, work full time for a year while saving half your salary, then fund a year long sabbatical for yourself. If at the end of that sab…

Better to do six months/six months (stupid income tax).

Re: Bring Back the 40-hour work week (March 2012)

#170

Post by tetomb » Wed, Nov 14, 2012, 2:30 AM UTC

I feel that the four day work week is the sweet spot for productivity and I will institute this when I start hiring. 28-32 hours of work a week is better than 15-20 hours of work and 20 hours of facebook and lolcats.