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The End of Eleventy

brennan.day

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Re: The End of Eleventy

#161

Post by evanelias »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #115
pjmlp wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ultimate entitlement is refusing to pay for tooling, while expecting to be getting a paid job as well. I am hard line on not feeling sorry for projects going away, being taken over by organisations, when it mattered people should have actually sponsored them, instead of bosting how great is to get it all for free/gratis. Every, single time, someone posts a cool paid project, there is the usual comment why pay, lo…

Neither side can have it both ways, but there's way too much whining about people not paying. Want people to pay for your tools? Don't offer them for free . This is related to my usual point here, that if one offers something for free under a GPL or MIT license, claiming to do so for the betterment of humanity, only to later retract it because corporations profit without paying or AI companies use it for model traini…

> if one offers something for free under a GPL or MIT license, claiming to do so for the betterment of humanity, only to later retract it

I would wager that an overwhelming majority of people who choose FOSS licenses do so without ever making any grandiose claims about the betterment of humanity. Yet upon any suggestion of a license change, if the project is popular, they get attacked for being a lying scheming rug-puller all the same.

> that person is an entitled liar who released proprietary software while using openness and generosity as a marketing strategy

Why do you automatically assume they're a liar, and not just someone whose circumstances or opinions changed over time? Or just responding to changes in the competitive landscape or business cycle?

If you release FOSS software, it seems your only socially acceptable options are to keep future versions FOSS forever, or abandon the project entirely if/when your circumstances no longer permit FOSS development. How is that state of affairs beneficial to anyone?

> Proprietary software is fine.

I agree, but our industry also has a vocal minority of open source purists, who treat anything using non-OSI-approved licenses as toxic waste -- even software using a quite generous source-available license.

For B2C software, that situation is manageable: the purists simply won't touch the software, and will loudly pan it on forums like HN, but plenty of others will try it if it's useful.

But for B2B software, it's more problematic, since there are enough open source purists out there that most tech companies employ at least a few, influencing corporate policy about acceptable licenses. If a new B2B software product has no OSI-approved FOSS edition at all, the purists tend to majorly tank adoption, which hugely impacts the business viability of the product.

So if you're bootstrapping a new B2B infrastructure product that doesn't lend itself to SaaS, what license do you pick? If you go FOSS, you severely limit the economic viability of your own work. Or if you go non-FOSS, you severely limit adoption, which then has the same outcome.

> That comes from some combination of the project looking not worth a cent, probably not working (at least not for the use case intended), payments being a big step

If it was just about money/payments, then non-OSI "source available" licenses would be far more popular, especially ones that allow the software to be used free/gratis for all situations that don't directly compete with the software creator. Yet instead the widespread attitude towards these licenses seems to be far more mixed. How do you explain that phenomenon?

Re: The End of Eleventy

#162

Post by SoftTalker »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #24
SoftTalker wrote: post #2

Didn't read because of the fuckery with the mouse pointer. Why do sites have to do this crap.

Are you calling a custom mouse icon crap/fuckery that makes you leave the site, or was there something I missed? If you are that's a pretty big overreaction. And it's probably worth you setting the single line to disable `cursor` on all sites via userContent.css or a styling extension.

Yes. There is absolutely no need to do that. And no need for me to take extra steps to undo whatever shit you just smeared on my screen, easier to just close the tab.

Pick a legible font, size, properly contrasting colors, and leave the rest alone.

Re: The End of Eleventy

#163

Post by bombcar »

evanelias wrote: post #158
Tomte wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just last week updating Hugo broke my templates. That‘s happening every few months. They deprecate and then remove or rename template variables like crazy. Great tool, though.

Yeah, I really don't understand why some developers have an extreme compulsion to constantly deprecate and rename things like this, causing massive upgrade headaches to users. In addition to Hugo, it happens constantly in GoReleaser. In both cases, they're excellent tools, but the unending renaming spree is just awful. Weirdly, both are in the Go ecosystem, which generally values backwards compatibility.

Reminds me that LaTeX has been throwing a depreciation warning for 20+ years on something.

Re: The End of Eleventy

#164

Post by pjmlp »

direwolf20 wrote: post #159
pjmlp wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people will never pay, even if it was one euro, single payment.

Yeah. Because they're 14 and don't have a credit card, or they don't have any money, or the price is completely unaffordable (looking at you, IDA) or they hate your software and wish your company would DIAF but are forced to use it for various reasons anyway. You might as well be nice to the people who will give you money, so that they'll give you money. Being hostile to people who are trying to give you money is rar…

All good reasons, except when it comes from people that can afford Apple, feel entitled to get gratis stuff, never pay anything else, and then come to complain on HN that another project died.

Re: The End of Eleventy

#165

Post by deaux »

adzm wrote: post #34
preommr wrote: post #13

Much prefer astro. It's somewhat counterintuitive, but the added complexity leads to simpler projects that are easier to maintain long term. I have simple markdown files, and a separate, code-based conversion process that works well for me. Also the documentation for eleventy was always confusing to me. I almost got the impression that "it's so simple, we don't have to explain it". Whereas astro's documentation is mu…

Astro is great, and easily extensible just by looking at the code and existing extensions too. Highly recommend it. Having the islands of actual react stuff is incredibly useful as well.

> Having the islands of actual react stuff is incredibly useful as well.

I've tried multiple times to come up with usecases where they are worth it, but still haven't found any. The only theoretical examples are things where you wouldn't be using Astro in thr first place, like real-time document collaboration or something.

Curious what you've found them so useful for. Besides just preferring React syntax to HTML+TS I guess? But again that seems to go against the point of using Astro.

Re: The End of Eleventy

#166

Post by tasuki »

charles_f wrote: post #18

I've been using the same version of Jekyll, using the same outdated, discontinued version of ruby, for more than 10y. I refuse to learn anything about ruby, or spend any time upgrading Jekyll or any of the 2 plug-ins I use, and I take a weird pride in that. It works, it generates my blog, I don't want it to do anything else. I have no idea how it works anymore. For all I know Jekyll has been abandoned. That version o…

Of course your point is 100% true and very valid. Have an upvote.

> For all I know Jekyll has been abandoned.

Side Note Spoiler: it's still kickin'. I try to keep my things on Debian-stable, and am the primary maintainer of about five websites managed by Jekyll. There was a Ruby 3 and it required like 20 minutes to get things working again. I wish all software required this little attention!

Re: The End of Eleventy

#167

Post by tasuki »

yallpendantools wrote: post #39
xp84 wrote: post #5

SSGs versus Wordpress is surprisingly still a battle… I’m genuinely shocked at the number of sites on the Net that use Wordpress, dynamically assembling markup with PHP for every page view, risking constant hacking and stuff, when they have a total of like 7 or 100 pages, which could all be pre-rendered to HTML files in roughly 8 seconds on even a junky laptop or X-small ec2 instance. It really is okay. For those who…

Is there a tenable workflow for the marketing department to use a SSG over Wordpress? - WYSIWYG editor is table stakes. The lovely folks at marketing once thought I was hacking when I `ps -eaf`-ed in an unresponsive Macbook. - They "put" images in their post. They don't "upload the image and position it with CSS". - It's the marketing department so they have to have all sorts of bells and whistles. At the very least…

> It's the marketing department so they have to have all sorts of bells and whistles. At the very least tracking, at most some obscure integration plug-in that as an engineer I have no kind words for.

The world would be a better place if you forced the lovely marketing folks to use a SSG and you know it!

I taught several absolutely non-technical people to edit the content of Jekyll websites we maintain together. I made them GitHub accounts, taught them the basics of Markdown, and said that if they break anything I can fix it easily, so they shouldn't worry about it. Sometimes they break things and eventually I fix it. It works great. I can only imagine the horrors I'd have to deal with if there was WYSIWYG!

Re: The End of Eleventy

#168

Post by xigoi »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #115
pjmlp wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ultimate entitlement is refusing to pay for tooling, while expecting to be getting a paid job as well. I am hard line on not feeling sorry for projects going away, being taken over by organisations, when it mattered people should have actually sponsored them, instead of bosting how great is to get it all for free/gratis. Every, single time, someone posts a cool paid project, there is the usual comment why pay, lo…

Neither side can have it both ways, but there's way too much whining about people not paying. Want people to pay for your tools? Don't offer them for free . This is related to my usual point here, that if one offers something for free under a GPL or MIT license, claiming to do so for the betterment of humanity, only to later retract it because corporations profit without paying or AI companies use it for model traini…

> if one offers something for free under a GPL or MIT license, claiming to do so for the betterment of humanity, only to later retract it because corporations profit without paying or AI companies use it for model training

Both the GPL and MIT licenses require attribution, so by publishing open-source software, developers are not consenting to LLM training.

Re: The End of Eleventy

#169

Post by rglover »

peteforde wrote: post #58

Many folks on HN are the exact sorts of people who have lived the thankless popular-enough-to-be-an-unpaid-job solo OSS maintainer dream, so I wonder if you feel as annoyed by the tone of this post as I do. I truly don't understand how the same folks that champion accessibility and humane ideals while humble bragging about working for $5/hour to help get local businesses online can throw so much shade on people who a…

Low-agency people who've never produced any work of consequence have no frame of reference for what it takes, and therefore, don't give a shit about what it takes to do it (and keep it going amidst their entitlement, indifference, and dismissals).

OSS is just a toxic world burdened by a perpetual war between passive aggression and ego, neither of which will ever "put down their swords."

Re: The End of Eleventy

#170

Post by overfeed »

mooreds wrote: post #20
charles_f wrote: post #18

I've been using the same version of Jekyll, using the same outdated, discontinued version of ruby, for more than 10y. I refuse to learn anything about ruby, or spend any time upgrading Jekyll or any of the 2 plug-ins I use, and I take a weird pride in that. It works, it generates my blog, I don't want it to do anything else. I have no idea how it works anymore. For all I know Jekyll has been abandoned. That version o…

> Eleventy might not receive new features, your website will still work. The beauty of SSGs, in one sentence, folks. I'm not aware of any CVEs in HTML, either.

> The beauty of SSGs, in one sentence, folks

Incidentally, also the curse, for the authors who attempt to monetize SSGs: most users prioritize control, and don't clamor for new features. A nightmare combination for *aaS peddlers.

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