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Apple Silicon and Virtual Machines: Beating the 2 VM Limit (2023)

khronokernel.com

161–170 of 191 posts

Re: Apple Silicon and Virtual Machines: Beating the 2 VM Limit (2023)

#161
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are likely scared of people who would run MacOS virtual desktop farms, without also buying an appropriate number of Apple machines. That’s what I would be worried about if my primary source of income was hardware sales.

Imagine buying a mac studio with 500+ GB of memory and being limited to 2 vms.

You realise you can run VMs for any other os right? It's a limit on running macOS not a limit on running VMs.

Re: Apple Silicon and Virtual Machines: Beating the 2 VM Limit (2023)

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Market design. They don't want to be in the server business, they don't want there to be third party VM providers running Mac farms selling oversubscribed giving underpowered disappointing VM experiences to users who will complain. A bunch of folks want Apple to enter a market Apple doesn't want to enter into. They have tools available which would enable that market which they are kneecapping on purpose so that nobod…

>The "two VMs per unit hardware" has been in their license for at least a decade. I'd be pretty surprised if there isn't a workaround or hack for this. Microsoft has had limits on some things like RDP on some versions of Windows, but there have always been ways to get around it.

You are commenting on the article that discusses exactly that.

Re: Apple Silicon and Virtual Machines: Beating the 2 VM Limit (2023)

#163
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird .. macOS is still completely open is my experience. Can you give an example?

I compile a tool we use, send it to another developer, they can't open it without going through system settings because the OS thinks it's unsafe. There is no blanket easy way to disable this behaviour. We also inject custom dlibs into clang during compilation and starting with Tahoe that started to fail - we discovered that it's because of SIP(system integrity protection). We reached out to apple, got the answer tha…

> We also inject custom dlibs into clang during compilation

I am curious what you are doing

Re: Apple Silicon and Virtual Machines: Beating the 2 VM Limit (2023)

#164
post #8

starting with M3+ you can use Hypervisor.framework/Virtualization.framework to spin up nested VMs. it would be amusing if that bypassed the limit.

IIRC, that's only for Linux guests that can nest. macOS can only one level deep. That is: you can't have a macOS guest (running on the Apple hardware host) make its own macOS guest.

Re: Apple Silicon and Virtual Machines: Beating the 2 VM Limit (2023)

#165
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a surprising sentiment. Most dell and Lenovo laptops work just fine and are usually of reasonably good build quality (non-plastic chassis etc.). arm64 is however mostly bad. The only real contender for Linux laptops (outside of asahi) was Snapdragon's chips but the HW support there was lacking iirc.

They give us Dell Linux machines from work. They suck so bad and we have so many problems. Overheating, camera is terrible, performance is bad relatively to the huge weight of the device. Everything is a huge step down from Macs. Whenever I see Linux people comparing Linux and Mac I'm amazed at the audacity. They are not in the same league. Not by a mile. Even the CLI is more convenient on the Mac which is truly amaz…

We are lucky in that we can choose our machines (within reason, and no real support if things get broken) and run an arch flavour.

I use thinkpad x1 carbons and have nearly 0 issues. The hardware is not quite as nice as a macbook but it does the job and is nice enough.

Re: Apple Silicon and Virtual Machines: Beating the 2 VM Limit (2023)

#166
post #59
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has apple been a serious development platform in the last 20 years? I know a lot of devs like apple hardware because it is premium but OSX has always been "almost linux" controlled by a company that cares more about itunes then it does the people using their hardware to develop.

Apple had real Unix a decade before the Linux crap was made, a bad unix copy. Nextstep was much better than Linux crap. "A budget of bad ideas" is what Alan Kay said about Linux [1], he invented the personal computer. My 1987-1997 ISP was based on several different Unix running on Apple, probably long before you where born. Apple built several supercomputers. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmsIZUuBoQs [2] Founde…

It's interesting how "real Unix" is still thrown around as a badge of prestige when Linux basically runs the world now.

Re: Apple Silicon and Virtual Machines: Beating the 2 VM Limit (2023)

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The "two VMs per unit hardware" has been in their license for at least a decade. I'd be pretty surprised if there isn't a workaround or hack for this. Microsoft has had limits on some things like RDP on some versions of Windows, but there have always been ways to get around it.

Sure you can do it technically, but then you have a licensing compliance issue, so no reputable business will do it. You can run x86 macOS VMs in Windows or Linux too with a little bit of technical trickery, but again, you end up with a license issue, so no-one reputable does it.

I've never really understood how Apple can let people download MacOS for free, and then tell them where and how they can run it - only on Apple's hardware. If I download a copy of Windows or any software ever written, I can run it on any hardware that exists that can run it. But somehow Apple gets to dictate to people where and how they can run freely available software that anyone can download?

Re: Apple Silicon and Virtual Machines: Beating the 2 VM Limit (2023)

#168
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a surprising sentiment. Most dell and Lenovo laptops work just fine and are usually of reasonably good build quality (non-plastic chassis etc.). arm64 is however mostly bad. The only real contender for Linux laptops (outside of asahi) was Snapdragon's chips but the HW support there was lacking iirc.

They give us Dell Linux machines from work. They suck so bad and we have so many problems. Overheating, camera is terrible, performance is bad relatively to the huge weight of the device. Everything is a huge step down from Macs. Whenever I see Linux people comparing Linux and Mac I'm amazed at the audacity. They are not in the same league. Not by a mile. Even the CLI is more convenient on the Mac which is truly amaz…

How is the Mac CLI more convenient? There isn't even a package manager in the box, they ship loads of old outdated tools too. Plus there's the whole BSD/GNU convention thing you have to watch out for.

I don't find my ThinkPad running Linux overheats, nor is it particularly heavy. And performance is comparable to the similarly priced MBP at the time. Camera sucks, but compared to my Surface so do the Macs...

Re: Apple Silicon and Virtual Machines: Beating the 2 VM Limit (2023)

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I run macOS because Apple understands that QA testing is something of actual importance, and designing yet another package manager is not. Apple demonstrated with their latest releases that they don't give a single fuck about QA. OSX 26 is very buggy. The corner resize debacle, the glass debacle, and problem after problem that has made it to the HN front page is enough to know they don't care about QA the way you th…

> The list of problems are described are not typical, I've seen none of that running Linux. YMMV Haven't run into any of those problems either. Linux has been a "just works" experience for me for nearly a decade now. Buying Intel hardware seems to have done the trick. It's pointless to engage in such argumentation though. Even if the experience was poor, it wouldn't matter, because the cost of a "good experience" is…

I recently went (almost) all-in on Linux after many years on Windows. The final straw for me was that I paid for a "lifetime license" for Outlook, because I've been using Outlook for decades, and have every email I've ever sent or received in Outlook. Well, I upgraded the CPU on the server where I run the VM which hosts Outlook, and then Microsoft wanted me to purchase a full new copy of Outlook because of the CPU upgrade. That was it, I'm done.

I moved Linux Mint and Thunderbird for email, and it's honestly been great. I switched all of my Windows-based VMs to Linux Mint.

My main workstation/laptop is still on Windows due to some hardware issues, but I will work those out in time. Mainly I have a USB4 port that also outputs Displayport, which I connect to a Displayport splitter so I can run three 4k monitors. That's the only thing that I haven't solved on Linux, but I haven't put much time into it. And I don't really blame Linux for that, I more blame the laptop manufacturer for not fully supporting Linux.

Re: Apple Silicon and Virtual Machines: Beating the 2 VM Limit (2023)

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The limit isn't really a resource issue, since you can run pretty much an "unlimited" number of non-Mac VMs. I suspect it's more of a business decision, such as preventing people from setting up shop as a low-cost Mac VPS provider.

Maybe it doesn't work. Why are you so sure it would? It may perform very badly.

I've run multiple Windows VMs as well as multiple Docker sessions at the same time on different MBPs (my current one being an M3 Max). Didn't really budge the machine at all.
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