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FCC updates covered list to include foreign-made consumer routers

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Re: FCC updates covered list to include foreign-made consumer routers

#161

Post by afavour »

dlcarrier wrote: post #155
OneLeggedCat wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> foreign-made consumer routers can still be sold, but they are going to look at them with a fine-tooth comb, and they are going to use FCC approval as leverage to try to increase domestic manufacturing That is not what's going to happen. What's going to happen is that anyone coughing up payola to the current executive in chief's people will get approved, and anyone that doesn't will remain blocked. This practice is…

That descriptions already fits the payola model. It's almost never about directly handing money to a politician. That's illegal, so it's not worth doing when there's legal ways to do it. Instead, payola usually involves regulations requiring using some kind of product or certification, then the organizations that sell the product or perform the certification contribute to the politicians. Also, the biggest benefactor…

> That descriptions already fits the payola model.

The old payola model. This new model encompasses the old one and adds a neat layer of outright politician bribery on top.

Re: FCC updates covered list to include foreign-made consumer routers

#162

Post by crote »

dcrazy wrote: post #49
wahern wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, foreign-made consumer routers can still be sold, but they are going to look at them with a fine-tooth comb, and they are going to use FCC approval as leverage to try to increase domestic manufacturing. You're assuming a non-partisan technocratic process, which this administration has amply shown is neither capable nor willing to provide. This requirement becomes another opportunity for Pay-to-Play, either in ca…

This is the problem with erosion of norms. We’ve all known for decades that consumer routers have shit security. We’ve all known about the risk of implants or intentional backdoors in the supply chain. And now when the FCC appears to be finally doing something about it, there’s a massive cloud of mistrust hanging over the whole idea.

If they cared about security, US-made routers wouldn't be exempt.

Re: FCC updates covered list to include foreign-made consumer routers

#163

Post by catlikesshrimp »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #102
catlikesshrimp wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somebody has to pay for the support. There is no free meal. Enterprise must be able to pay for support for as long as they use devices. Solved. I can only think of requiring the devices to be serviceable, as you say. The absolute only way I can think of charging the consumers, ie the owners, is to charge a tax on internet connections. Then the government would pay somehow vulnerability hunters working along patchers,…

> Somebody has to pay for the support. There is no free meal. The problem is not that people need a free meal. The problem is that people need the ability to eat some other food when the OEM's restaurant is closed or unsatisfactory.

I mean, OEM would make the device upgradeable, government will pay independent bounty hunters and patchers and will push the updates. Then consumers pay for all that.

Re: FCC updates covered list to include foreign-made consumer routers

#165

Post by ineedaj0b »

If war breaks out you better bet a bunch of equipment will turn off.

Numerous papers showing the ability to easily map indoors areas with WiFi (including occupancy) it’s a liability.

There will be excuses “tariffs” etc but I heard a few have gotten calls from three letter agencies coyly telling you to improve your systems.

It’s a chance to refresh the product line! (of course at the worst time when mem prices are bleed you dry high)

Re: FCC updates covered list to include foreign-made consumer routers

#166

Post by jauntywundrkind »

If I were a nation worried about the health and security of routers, I'd be making sure that open source has a place.

But largely thanks to FCC demands, the list of router hardware that can run open source operating systems such as OpenWRT has dwindled to a trickle. There's very precious few wifi 7 / BE systems available, and only a few wifi 6! it's ghastly. https://toh.openwrt.org/?features=wifi_be https://toh.openwrt.org/?features=wifi_ax

To me, this is a deeply dangerous situation for the state & for the population, where it is nearly impossible for consumers and businesses to purchase gear that they can secure. Where we are at the mercy of what is on the market, and no actual securing of our own can occur.

The FCC claimed in 2015 they were not trying to forbid open source systems, but the additional compliance demands they have made unsupportable unsecurable devices the default state: the FCC mandated companies make sure the users dont have freedom, make sure the wifi performance is locked down, and the most obvious path to that end is to just lock out the user entirely. Open source isn't outlawed, but the FCC turned a good working amazing open source movement into something that is incredibly rare and hard to do. The FCC assurances (https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/11/free-router-software-n...) have not proven true (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11122966): everything has gotten worse for security & availability (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11122966).

Re: FCC updates covered list to include foreign-made consumer routers

#167

Post by otterley »

mrsssnake wrote: post #56

What is a router? Really, do they have a definition?

The definition is at the bottom of this document https://www.fcc.gov/sites/default/files/NSD-Routers0326.pdf

...which in turn refers to https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2024/NIST.IR.8425A.pdf

Re: FCC updates covered list to include foreign-made consumer routers

#168

Post by reverius42 »

ineedaj0b wrote: post #165

If war breaks out you better bet a bunch of equipment will turn off. Numerous papers showing the ability to easily map indoors areas with WiFi (including occupancy) it’s a liability. There will be excuses “tariffs” etc but I heard a few have gotten calls from three letter agencies coyly telling you to improve your systems. It’s a chance to refresh the product line! (of course at the worst time when mem prices are ble…

"Will turn off"... are you claiming that consumer-grade routers have a secret backdoor kill switch that one government or another can use to turn them off? That's a little hard to believe (even when they are security Swiss cheese).

Re: FCC updates covered list to include foreign-made consumer routers

#169

Post by wmf »

walterbell wrote: post #146
wmf wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where it's manufactured has nothing to do with security.

FCC maintains a list of equipment and services (Covered List) that have been determined to “pose an unacceptable risk to the national security.." FCC Updates Covered List to Include Foreign-Made Consumer Routers..

I disagree with the FCC. Banning "China routers" will not meaningfully increase security. Actual security has no correlation with country of manufacture.

Re: FCC updates covered list to include foreign-made consumer routers

#170

Post by reverius42 »

walterbell wrote: post #146
wmf wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where it's manufactured has nothing to do with security.

FCC maintains a list of equipment and services (Covered List) that have been determined to “pose an unacceptable risk to the national security.." FCC Updates Covered List to Include Foreign-Made Consumer Routers..

"national security" and "security" mean very, very different things in this context though.
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