Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Cursor Composer 2 is just Kimi K2.5 with RL

twitter.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 180 posts

Re: Cursor Composer 2 is just Kimi K2.5 with RL

#161

Post by jeany2s »

granitepail wrote: post #93

"Just" Kimi K2.5 with RL—people really misunderstand how difficult it is to achieve these reults with RL. Cursor's research team is highly respected within the industry, and what they've done is quite impressive. Before people go jumping to conclusions about model theft, it's worth considering the possibility that they did reach an agreement with Moonshot which their researchers were not aware of. That would certainl…

You should realize the number/comparison they released is based on CursorBench... I don't have to emphasize more how sus this kind of self-defined closed-source benchmark can be

Re: Cursor Composer 2 is just Kimi K2.5 with RL

#162

Post by hakunin »

satvikpendem wrote: post #157
hakunin wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think they probably acquire it in accordance with Chinese law. You can easily look up[1] how China struggles with effective enforcement of IP laws. And specifically for LLMs, Anthropic recently claimed that Chinese models trained on it without permission.[2] > Who are you quoting with those marks? Double quote marks have other uses besides direct quotes, such as signaling unusual usage.[3] In this case, talking a…

They said Chinese law, which is not the same as American law, and presumably using IP the way they have is legal there, if indeed they actually did, as allegations of IP theft are just that, allegations, and even if they weren't, all nations in the history of mankind have been "stealing" "intellectual property" since forever, including the US from Britain, literally with the good graces of the fledgling US government…

The linked wikipedia article specifically talks about China struggling to enforce Chinese law. Here's a quote:

> Despite making efforts in intellectual property protection in China, a major obstacle in prosecution is corruption in courts; local protectionism and political influence prohibits effective enforcement of intellectual property laws. To help overcome local corruption, China established specialized IP courts and sharply increased financial penalties.

> all nations in the history of mankind have been "stealing" "intellectual property" since forever

You can't use 100-400 years ago as the counterexample to what happens today. It's like justifying Russian invasion of Ukraine with colonists invading Native American territories. We're in a different world order, things that were normalized that far back shouldn't be normalized today.

Re: Cursor Composer 2 is just Kimi K2.5 with RL

#163

Post by satvikpendem »

hakunin wrote: post #162
satvikpendem wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They said Chinese law, which is not the same as American law, and presumably using IP the way they have is legal there, if indeed they actually did, as allegations of IP theft are just that, allegations, and even if they weren't, all nations in the history of mankind have been "stealing" "intellectual property" since forever, including the US from Britain, literally with the good graces of the fledgling US government…

The linked wikipedia article specifically talks about China struggling to enforce Chinese law. Here's a quote: > Despite making efforts in intellectual property protection in China, a major obstacle in prosecution is corruption in courts; local protectionism and political influence prohibits effective enforcement of intellectual property laws. To help overcome local corruption, China established specialized IP courts…

They are struggling to enforce domestic IP law because it directly affects their own businesses, they don't care about international IP law.

Human nature is the same in any time period, there is no "normalization" at all, it's just how humans have always and will always continue to act, even today, with the world order currently breaking down.

Re: Cursor Composer 2 is just Kimi K2.5 with RL

#164

Post by hakunin »

geocar wrote: post #160
hakunin wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think they probably acquire it in accordance with Chinese law. You can easily look up[1] how China struggles with effective enforcement of IP laws. And specifically for LLMs, Anthropic recently claimed that Chinese models trained on it without permission.[2] > Who are you quoting with those marks? Double quote marks have other uses besides direct quotes, such as signaling unusual usage.[3] In this case, talking a…

> You can easily look up[1] how China struggles with effective enforcement of IP laws. I didn't see anything in there about Chinese companies violating Chinese law. Can you so easily look up how American companies struggle with effective enforcement of Chinese IP laws? I think it should be pretty easy to see how American companies struggle with effective enforcement of European IP laws, and I can tell you it is simil…

> So you think it is "fair" […]

Maybe fair in a tit-for-tat sort of way, but not okay. That's why I called the whole situation funny. The rest of your post is answered in the sibling comment.

Re: Cursor Composer 2 is just Kimi K2.5 with RL

#165

Post by hakunin »

satvikpendem wrote: post #163
hakunin wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linked wikipedia article specifically talks about China struggling to enforce Chinese law. Here's a quote: > Despite making efforts in intellectual property protection in China, a major obstacle in prosecution is corruption in courts; local protectionism and political influence prohibits effective enforcement of intellectual property laws. To help overcome local corruption, China established specialized IP courts…

They are struggling to enforce domestic IP law because it directly affects their own businesses, they don't care about international IP law. Human nature is the same in any time period, there is no "normalization" at all, it's just how humans have always and will always continue to act, even today, with the world order currently breaking down.

Human nature may be the same, but it differs based on context. Humans act differently in a threatening high risk, low order world than they do in a more stable, lawful world. There is normalization, because in a pre-nuclear, pre-military alliance, pre-diplomacy, pre-world-police world you had to be much more ruthless and cunning as a state. The norms for people were completely different.

Re: Cursor Composer 2 is just Kimi K2.5 with RL

#166

Post by satvikpendem »

hakunin wrote: post #165
satvikpendem wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are struggling to enforce domestic IP law because it directly affects their own businesses, they don't care about international IP law. Human nature is the same in any time period, there is no "normalization" at all, it's just how humans have always and will always continue to act, even today, with the world order currently breaking down.

Human nature may be the same, but it differs based on context. Humans act differently in a threatening high risk, low order world than they do in a more stable, lawful world. There is normalization, because in a pre-nuclear, pre-military alliance, pre-diplomacy, pre-world-police world you had to be much more ruthless and cunning as a state. The norms for people were completely different.

I see no evidence that they do act substantially differently post nukes given everything going on in the world in the news today. Regardless, this thread is going off topic, have a good day.

Re: Cursor Composer 2 is just Kimi K2.5 with RL

#167

Post by muzani »

miroljub wrote: post #72
mohsen1 wrote: post #22

Cursor Composer 1 was Qwen and this is Kimi. IDE is based on VSCode. The entire company is build on packaging open source and reselling it. Ollama is also doing this. There is so much money to be made repackaging open source these days. So funny to see Twitter go wild saying "a 50 person team just beat Anthropic" blah blah.

> Cursor Composer 1 was Qwen and this is Kimi. IDE is based on VSCode. The entire company is build on packaging open source and reselling it. The question is, where's the outrage? Why are there no headlines "USA steals Chinese tech?" "All USA can do is make a cheap copy of Chinese SOTA models". > So funny to see Twitter go wild saying "a 50 person team just beat Anthropic" blah blah. Well, if it's an American company…

If American policies stay this way, we'll see "Made in USA. Designed in Beijing."

Re: Cursor Composer 2 is just Kimi K2.5 with RL

#168

Post by geocar »

hakunin wrote: post #162
satvikpendem wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They said Chinese law, which is not the same as American law, and presumably using IP the way they have is legal there, if indeed they actually did, as allegations of IP theft are just that, allegations, and even if they weren't, all nations in the history of mankind have been "stealing" "intellectual property" since forever, including the US from Britain, literally with the good graces of the fledgling US government…

The linked wikipedia article specifically talks about China struggling to enforce Chinese law. Here's a quote: > Despite making efforts in intellectual property protection in China, a major obstacle in prosecution is corruption in courts; local protectionism and political influence prohibits effective enforcement of intellectual property laws. To help overcome local corruption, China established specialized IP courts…

> The linked wikipedia article specifically talks about China struggling to enforce Chinese law. Here's a quote: > > Despite making efforts in intellectual property protection in China, a major obstacle in prosecution is corruption in courts; local protectionism and political influence prohibits effective enforcement of intellectual property laws. To help overcome local corruption, China established specialized IP courts and sharply increased financial penalties.

That doesn't sound like struggling to me.

https://www.matec-conferences.org/articles/matecconf/pdf/201...

Compare with the growth in cases in the US:

https://www.uscourts.gov/data-news/judiciary-news/2020/02/13...

Why is it China increasing cases is evidence of struggling to you? Do you think the US is also struggling? What exactly are you talking about?

> You can't use 100-400 years ago as the counterexample to what happens today.

The US joined the Berne convention in 1988. I do not think we are talking about 400 years ago, but we're talking about the majority of the US history, having law that it was okay to ignore copyrights of the rest of the world.

> It's like justifying Russian invasion of Ukraine with colonists invading Native American territories

I don't agree: One can also mean that there is no justification for the invasion of the Ukraine just like there was no justification for invading American territories.

Re: Cursor Composer 2 is just Kimi K2.5 with RL

#169

Post by hakunin »

geocar wrote: post #168
hakunin wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linked wikipedia article specifically talks about China struggling to enforce Chinese law. Here's a quote: > Despite making efforts in intellectual property protection in China, a major obstacle in prosecution is corruption in courts; local protectionism and political influence prohibits effective enforcement of intellectual property laws. To help overcome local corruption, China established specialized IP courts…

> The linked wikipedia article specifically talks about China struggling to enforce Chinese law. Here's a quote: > > Despite making efforts in intellectual property protection in China, a major obstacle in prosecution is corruption in courts; local protectionism and political influence prohibits effective enforcement of intellectual property laws. To help overcome local corruption, China established specialized IP co…

> Why is it China increasing cases is evidence of struggling to you? Do you think the US is also struggling? What exactly are you talking about?

I didn't say anything about increasing cases. "a major obstacle in prosecution is corruption in courts; local protectionism and political influence prohibits effective enforcement of intellectual property laws"

> we're talking about the majority of the US history, having law that it was okay to ignore copyrights of the rest of the world.

For the majority of world history slavery was the norm. _Majority_ of history doesn't matter. What matters is the order established in recent history.

> there was no justification for invading American territories

Colonization was normalized and institutionalized at that time way more than land invasion and annexation today. It's not even close.

Re: Cursor Composer 2 is just Kimi K2.5 with RL

#170

Post by ywvcbk »

hakunin wrote: post #153
geocar wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you think Chinese LLMs acquired training data legitimately? I think they probably acquire it in accordance with Chinese law. > but I don't think the US "started it" to be fair. Who are you quoting with those marks? Started what? To be fair to whom?

> I think they probably acquire it in accordance with Chinese law. You can easily look up[1] how China struggles with effective enforcement of IP laws. And specifically for LLMs, Anthropic recently claimed that Chinese models trained on it without permission.[2] > Who are you quoting with those marks? Double quote marks have other uses besides direct quotes, such as signaling unusual usage.[3] In this case, talking a…

> claimed that Chinese models trained on it without permission

That's extremely rich coming from Anthropic, though? Well they would know all about it of course...

Post reply on HN