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The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

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Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#161

Post by casey2 »

IshKebab wrote: post #56

Uhm this article is a total lie, no? Claim: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing Under Section 702 Actual quote: I strongly believe that this matter can and should be declassified and that Congress needs to debate it openly before Section 702 is reauthorized. In fact, when it is eventually declassified, the American people will be stunned that it took so long and that Congress has been debating this authority…

AND that Congress has been devating this authority with insufficient information. That's what will stun the American people. He said AND not NOT.

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#162

Post by howard941 »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #138
gwinkle wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snowden is comparing two things that, in fact, are not alike. Surveillance gathers information, whereas censorship suppresses expression. It might sound like clever rhetoric to people of a lower intellectual capacity, but these are fundamentally distinct concepts.

> Surveillance gathers information, whereas censorship suppresses expression. Surveillance suppresses expression through chilling effects.

It only chills when the watchers are hidden. See David Brin's The Transparent Society for an example of how sousveillence ought to work.

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#163

Post by IshKebab »

casey2 wrote: post #161
IshKebab wrote: post #56

Uhm this article is a total lie, no? Claim: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing Under Section 702 Actual quote: I strongly believe that this matter can and should be declassified and that Congress needs to debate it openly before Section 702 is reauthorized. In fact, when it is eventually declassified, the American people will be stunned that it took so long and that Congress has been debating this authority…

AND that Congress has been devating this authority with insufficient information. That's what will stun the American people. He said AND not NOT.

Good point but it doesn't change the conclusion because being stunned that Congress are debating it with insufficient information also isn't the same as being stunned about what was actually done.

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#164

Post by QuercusMax »

gzread wrote: post #151
cobbzilla wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it’s a secret FISA court decision that the public can’t see but a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee can, but he can’t tell us what he’s seen. But he can ask questions to get the surveillance state to pull another Clapper-esque whopper and get away with it.

Can he tell us in Congress with immunity, like the one who read out all the redacted names of the Epstein pedophiles?

I assume if he did that then:

- The story would become about "leaking" classified information

- He would likely lose his access to this stuff in the future

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#165

Post by fsflover »

harry8 wrote: post #145
classified wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meaning what?

The misguided who say they don’t need privacy suddenly have a dense memory of the thousands of times they’ve turned the lock on a bathroom door and consider the idea of deficating in full view as an alternative. The meaning is to highlight the incredible silliness of the “nothing to hide” skawkers who sound like so many Soviet propagandists.

This is completely missing the point of why one needs privacy. Lack of it harms journalism and activism, making the government too powerful and not accountable. If only activists and journalists will try to have the privacy, it will be much easier to target them. Everyone should have privacy to protect them. Thus is what Snowden probably meant, not bathrooms.

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#166

Post by fsflover »

howard941 wrote: post #162
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Surveillance gathers information, whereas censorship suppresses expression. Surveillance suppresses expression through chilling effects.

It only chills when the watchers are hidden. See David Brin's The Transparent Society for an example of how sousveillence ought to work.

But how do we achieve such society?

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#167

Post by AnthonyMouse »

howard941 wrote: post #162
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Surveillance gathers information, whereas censorship suppresses expression. Surveillance suppresses expression through chilling effects.

It only chills when the watchers are hidden. See David Brin's The Transparent Society for an example of how sousveillence ought to work.

> It only chills when the watchers are hidden.

How does that even help? The concern is that you're deterred from e.g. admitting that you're a lesbian under your own name because your religious grandparents wouldn't approve, or advocating for school choice because your boss is married to a public school teacher, or criticizing the government.

Knowing that they're going to see it doesn't stop them from cutting you out of their will or putting you on toilet duty or playing "show me the man and I will show you the crime".

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#168

Post by howard941 »

fsflover wrote: post #166
howard941 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It only chills when the watchers are hidden. See David Brin's The Transparent Society for an example of how sousveillence ought to work.

But how do we achieve such society?

With great difficulty? The watchers don't want to be watched. I know the solution but I don't know how to get there.

EDIT: IIRC Brin addressed this in his fictional treatment of the concept in the novel Earth

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#169

Post by howard941 »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #167
howard941 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It only chills when the watchers are hidden. See David Brin's The Transparent Society for an example of how sousveillence ought to work.

> It only chills when the watchers are hidden. How does that even help? The concern is that you're deterred from e.g. admitting that you're a lesbian under your own name because your religious grandparents wouldn't approve, or advocating for school choice because your boss is married to a public school teacher, or criticizing the government. Knowing that they're going to see it doesn't stop them from cutting you out…

Those things happen right now. My concern is with government and powerful corporate watchers. Ubiquitous sousveillence ends that. It answers the question of "Who's watching the watchers." You'll be watching the watchers and heaven knows they need watching.

Think cops with always-on cameras, not grandma poking around beneath your mattress.

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#170

Post by xprnio »

magicalhippo wrote: post #142
inetknght wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone knows what's happening inside.

Indeed, people are snorting coke. Hence why they want doors.

Good thing they were already in the stall, as that coke was bunk, and cut with laxatives
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