Live data from Hacker News

Russia's economy has entered the death zone

economist.com

161–170 of 245 posts

Re: Russia's economy has entered the death zone

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside from some factual errors, that's one way to look on things. Another one is that USSR's political top, however incompetent, released their personal fates are tied to their country, while the modern ones plan for a retirement elsewhere (or at least did so before SHTF in 2022). > USSR: kicked their educated jews out (twice -- pogroms & doctors plot) Sorry, that's not how it happen (source: my grandfather being a U…

> Pogroms were before USSR I know. Beside the point. The point is that 20th c. Russia/USSR's human capital had been obliterated. > Russia already got damn nukes. Old technology. Suicide. West has better weapons, like twitter (arab spring), autonomous drones, and whatever sonic/microwave mystery we used in Venezuela. Russia is behind. > Looted as in being sent food aid? Looted as in having state bureaucrats sell natio…

I'm not related to the rest of the conversation, but the "NATO expansion" talking point is so egregious at this point that it's impossible to pass by and ignore.

> NATO wants to put missiles on their doorstep.

No they didn't. Joining NATO was never really on the table for Ukraine, because by the time there was political willpower, Russia had already created enough territorial disputes to prevent it from even being a hypothetical possibility. Not only was Ukraine never close to being in NATO, but you talk of "putting missiles" somewhere, which is like five steps further than that.

If they cared so much about NATO, you'd think they would've done something in 2004, no? When all the Baltic states were added into NATO, putting their borders 100km away from St. Petersburg and about as far from Moscow as Ukraine's borders are? And yet nothing happened...

Nothing was happening between NATO and Ukraine before full-scale war started. Russia could've kept the situation as it was indefinitely. They chose to go to war not because they were desperate and terrified of something, but because they thought they could win the war really easily.

Then when their war led to Finland joining NATO, Russia's official response was to look mildly displeased and forget about it soon after. Because they never cared about those borders. Those borders were close to them for close to 20 years then.

> US state department had been plotting the Zelensky revolution

The "Zelensky revolution"? The one where Zelenskyy suddenly hopped off the stage and became a US-backed revolutionary leader? Not knowing that he was elected a full government change after the revolution, all the way in 2019, shows that you know nothing of Ukrainian politics despite being so confident about it.

There's a weird consensus between Americans who really love and really hate their country that the US has its hands in all the cookie jars, and that nothing in the world can happen without America's involvement. Ukraine has a student protest that snowballs out of control due to escalations, resulting in the country preferring democratic countries over the bright future of becoming a Belarus-like slave state? Must have been the US. Sure, this definitely was something the US liked a lot, but the connections to it are a lot more tenuous than things the US did meddle in. Stop trying to pretend that Ukrainians have no agency and are just a cardboard cutout with Uncle Sam standing behind it. The US has a lot of power, and it has access to lots of variables they can tweak to try and influence the situation, but the primary parties here are Russia and Ukraine.

Re: Russia's economy has entered the death zone

#162
post #73
post #7

Déjà vu … Since Crimea Invasion Russia’s Economy Is On the Brink of Collapse" – CNN Business, December 2014. "The End of the Putin Era? Russia’s Economy Is Tanking" – Newsweek, December 2014. "Russia Heading for Economic 'Colossal Collapse'" – BBC News (quoting Alexei Kudrin), December 2014. "How the Oil Price Collapse Could Topple Putin" – The Guardian, 2015. "Russia’s Economy Is a Mess" – The Atlantic, February 201…

All true, but I remember several articles in the Economist in the first year warning that no collapse was imminent, and basically that the Russian central bank had plenty of options to recalibrate the economy in the medium term. They made comparisons with other countries that have been subject to similar, or even much more severe sanctions. Overall I think they’ve been the best source of analysis on this I’ve found.…

I agree the Economist may still be the best major finance / news publication. I trust it over nearly all the others though it’s gone downhill since McElthwaite left for Bloomberg

Re: Russia's economy has entered the death zone

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pogroms were before USSR I know. Beside the point. The point is that 20th c. Russia/USSR's human capital had been obliterated. > Russia already got damn nukes. Old technology. Suicide. West has better weapons, like twitter (arab spring), autonomous drones, and whatever sonic/microwave mystery we used in Venezuela. Russia is behind. > Looted as in being sent food aid? Looted as in having state bureaucrats sell natio…

I'm not related to the rest of the conversation, but the "NATO expansion" talking point is so egregious at this point that it's impossible to pass by and ignore. > NATO wants to put missiles on their doorstep. No they didn't. Joining NATO was never really on the table for Ukraine, because by the time there was political willpower, Russia had already created enough territorial disputes to prevent it from even being a…

> done something in 2004, no? When all the Baltic states were added into NATO

Russians weren't happy about that either, but they were too weak to do anything other than complain. Now they are strong enough to retaliate. George Kennan was absolutely gutted by how stupid that expansion was[1].

> Stop trying to pretend that Ukrainians have no agency and are just a cardboard cutout with Uncle Sam standing behind it.

90%+ of mankind does what the signals (radio/newspaper/television/movies/music/textbooks/social media) tell them to do. Money controls the signals. Our Epstein class controls the money (global reserve currency). At least it used to. Ukrainians get the "fell for it" award. Only way to survive this onslaught is to block the outside signals the way the Iranians or the Chinese do. Europeans are slow, because they are only beginning to figure this out.

Their war would have been over before it began if it weren't for the funds and equipment we have furnished.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_F._Kennan#Opposition_to...

Re: Russia's economy has entered the death zone

#164
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I favor harsher sanctions against Russia but let's not be too optimistic. It doesn't take much funding to recruit a poor, desperate guy from the outer provinces, hand him a surplus rifle, and send him into a human wave attack. In a perverse sort of way, killing off those guys might actually be reducing Russian government expenses.

I think probably if Russia ran out of money for drones and missiles and could only support human wave attacks, Ukraine would be pretty happy.

Russia won't run out of drones as long as they can trade fossil fuels to China in exchange for weapons.

Re: Russia's economy has entered the death zone

#165
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then what, become a part of China? I don't think Russia could defend themselves from an attack of a lesser nation right now, and I truly wish one of them would take opportunity

China doesn't need to attach Russia. Just close the borders for all trade and Russia will implode within a year.

China doesn't want Russia to implode. That would only create problems for no real gain. But they'll take advantage of Russia's weakness to get cheap raw materials and perhaps some territorial concessions.

Re: Russia's economy has entered the death zone

#166

> If your competitors are also weakening—and if you believe you can tolerate the pain longer than they can—the calculus flips. Economic pressure that should drive compromise instead reinforces the logic of persistence. I think everyone underestimates just how much misery Russia, and Russian citizens, can endure.

On top of that current Russia isn’t actually “suffering”, certainly nowhere near 90s levels. Cheap crap from Russia replaced Western produce and those with money can buy grey goods. Putin is doing a “good” job insulating general population from the war.

lol you can call it crap if it makes you feel better, but McDonalds was replaced by the same vendors, making the same stuff sourced mostly locally as before, using the same processes that McDonalds used, they just don't send their revenue to the US anymore. Same for Ikea (majority of stuff sold at Ikea was sourced locally and continues under local brands), same for Starbucks - Shokoladnitsa is subjectively better and keeps all the $$ locally, but whatever. The level of myths and delusions people confidently post here on this topic is truly impressive.

Re: Russia's economy has entered the death zone

#167
I would add that it's really unclear, IMO, what the real state of the Russian economy is.

The main focus is on GDP growth, which indeed has been reported as decent - maybe a bit of a wobble recently but no more.

So, first of all, that number is kind of unverifiable. Hostile journalists have been silenced, independent institutions shattered or kicked out. Their GDP number might be accurate, but might also be inflated, and we'd never know. Russia is notorious for manipulating information for propaganda reasons and frankly I can't see why they wouldn't inflate their GDP prints. China was far more open when people were questioning its GDP and even then it was tea leaf prophecies.

Moreover, with Putin's (and incidentally Trump's) approach of never retreating and always doubling down, I'd expect Russia would act like it's business as usual until pretty much the day it collapses. As with the Titan sub, there will be some awkward creaking sounds then in one instant it will all go.

For the final straw, even if the GDP number is 100% right, increasingly it is driven by military spending. GDP is essentially the sum total of money spent in a country. And Russia is increasingly spending that money not on healthcare, schools, police, infrastructure and investments, and instead on military hardware being sent straight to be destroyed in Ukraine. You can do this for a little bit but, as the article points out, not forever, and mere GDP growth is not much of a sign of a strong economy.

There's just so much we don't know: if the GDP is real, what Russian gold reserves look like (apparently raided - but how much?), how their oil companies are holding up having siphoned every last Rouble meant for maintenance off to cash. Russia also lost something like an estimated 1.25M men. If for a back-of-the-envelope we assume half of Russia's prewar population is participating in labour force, that's almost 2% of the workforce permanently lost. And their loss rate ain't dropping.

EDIT some more caveats:

- GDP captures the official economy. It is unclear what the impact on the unofficial economy is, I can imagine larger than on the regular economy (but could make the opposite argument too).

- Even if Russia is not fudhing the final number, the incentives on individual surveyed subjects align with those of pumping GDP, especially in time of crisis - lower costs, higher income.

Re: Russia's economy has entered the death zone

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside from some factual errors, that's one way to look on things. Another one is that USSR's political top, however incompetent, released their personal fates are tied to their country, while the modern ones plan for a retirement elsewhere (or at least did so before SHTF in 2022). > USSR: kicked their educated jews out (twice -- pogroms & doctors plot) Sorry, that's not how it happen (source: my grandfather being a U…

> Pogroms were before USSR I know. Beside the point. The point is that 20th c. Russia/USSR's human capital had been obliterated. > Russia already got damn nukes. Old technology. Suicide. West has better weapons, like twitter (arab spring), autonomous drones, and whatever sonic/microwave mystery we used in Venezuela. Russia is behind. > Looted as in being sent food aid? Looted as in having state bureaucrats sell natio…

> We started shit in Ukraine

No. Putin started shit in Ukraine after the locals got feed up with his dear friend's blatant corruption and he took it personally. America was never ever a factor there. The world doesn't spin around USA, even Americans may think so.

> Zelensky revolution

Lol, Zelensky didn't came into public light until a year or so after the revolution.

Re: Russia's economy has entered the death zone

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> huge reserves of carbon fuel that it can afford to sell under market rates, Under market rates sure, but it must still be profitable. China and India know that, so they're going to drive down the price to the extent they can so that it's just barely profitable. But you can't just profit from the oil and gas, you need to profit enough to buy fighter jets and tanks, and all sorts of other things.

When it’s your pretty much singular source of foreign income you have to make sacrifices.

Russia sells wheat too. Minerals too. Weapons. You will be surprised the oil part isnt at 100% as what western media is telling you. Plus this source is mostly based on what western finance can see. BRICS dont submit data to westrrn finance analysyst anymore since 3 years ago. Anything you want to buy stock or trade you must absolutely ignore western hypes. Incredibly unreliable.

Re: Russia's economy has entered the death zone

#170
post #27
post #3

As a Ukrainian at war since day 1 – I don't buy it. They will sell their gas at discount to China until the very end. Military force is the only way to get them to the death zone.

As a strong supporter of Ukraine, I would say ultimately wars are won or lost by economic forces (the side that can't afford it any more loses). That's how the USSR lost the Cold War, and all I can hope is that all of Europe really has your back in this one.

Russia will win on this one. Productions are largely internal. What they lack they get from China. Ukraine loss so many men. Their populations will just go down from now on. USA and China are on the verge of recessions. I really doubt USA will prioritize Ukraine over Israel or China ignoring its own needs. Cede the land and rebuilt. Better to cut losses now than even more loss.
Post reply on HN