Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

theintercept.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 388 posts

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#161

Post by roughly »

themaninthedark wrote: post #115
mindslight wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm getting tired of these comments that normalize being in the middle of the slippery slope as if it is merely the same as being at the top of the slippery slope was. They may not have been "good" times, but they were certainly better times when government agencies at least aimed to carry out their roles in good faith rather than minmaxing the rules to cause the most damage to enemies of the Party. Applying judgemen…

No. Full stop. Laws are supposed to be crafted to be as applied by anyone, anywhere and at any time. This is why lawyers and politicians are supposed to have foresight and be prudent. You look at prior events and see them as justified due to the people involved and situations. If the US government can, for example investigate Richard Spencer or some other extremist figure based on a web post, then they can do the sam…

> Laws are supposed to be crafted to be as applied by anyone, anywhere and at any time. This is why lawyers and politicians are supposed to have foresight and be prudent.

Except this is both impossible and a bad idea, which is why we have judges, juries, elections, and every other part of the system intended to constrain the blind application of the law.

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#162

Post by cyberax »

epiccoleman wrote: post #152
cyberax wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DHS/ICE is in a weird constitutional spot. Most immigration violations in the US are _civil_ violations. So the Fourth Amendment is less applicable. It's also why detained immigrants don't automatically get the right to be represented by a lawyer. ICE/DHS technically are just acting as marshals, merely ensuring that defendants appear at court proceedings and then enforcing court decisions (deportations).

It's not really that the 4th amendment is less applicable, it's that the procedural protections are lower in civil proceedings. I think it's a pretty big undersell to describe ICE as "marshals" too - they've got plenty of discretion in how they prioritize targeted people and who they detain. They are not just a neutral party executing court orders.

In theory yes, but in practice it's more unclear. There are conflicting Supreme Court precedents, that weaken the Fourth Amendment in cases where criminal penalties don't apply. Asset foreiture is another example.

> I think it's a pretty big undersell to describe ICE as "marshals" too - they've got plenty of discretion in how they prioritize targeted people and who they detain. They are not just a neutral party executing court orders.

Yep. That's also a difference between theory and practice.

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#163

Post by philipallstar »

shevy-java wrote: post #110
legitster wrote: post #32

So I don't think I actually have a problem with businesses handing over their customer data if there is a valid warrant or subpoena. That's the system working as intended. The main crux of the problem here is that the DHS has been granted a wide berth by congress to issue administrative subpoenas - i.e. not reviewed by a real judge and not directed at criminals. In "good" times this made investigations run smoothly.…

I don't see how what has been described here as "the system works as intended". A free state should not be able to sniff after people for made up reasons.

In the sense that all reasons are made up, I suppose that might be true. But while deporting illegal immigrants for no other reason is totally fine, deporting the ones that also have a criminal conviction is definitely not made up reasons.

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#164

Post by fc417fc802 »

JohnMakin wrote: post #153
Nextgrid wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternatively, use them pseudonymously? There's little reason any of these companies need to know your real identity. This will both reduce the likelihood of ICE finding your account from a real-life interaction, as well as reduce the likelihood of ICE finding your real-life identity if they do get your account data (they'd at least need to dig through it more than just going by first/last name on the account itself)…

> (they'd at least need to dig through it more than just going by first/last name on the account itself). FYI this is beyond trivial and automated to the nth degree. There is so much more to go off of than some form fields to uniquely identify a person.

For linking activity back to your person? Without name, payment details, photos of face, or IRL social graph the easiest path that comes to mind is IP address. But that's going to involve additional inquiries and is likely ambiguous (unless you live alone, but determining that is again more work).

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#165

Post by philipallstar »

throwway120385 wrote: post #90
pear01 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they going to stop because a company fights a subpoena? Or perhaps in the case of some touted alternatives, even if a subpoena were acted upon, no data would be intelligible? Maybe they'll just show up to your house next time. I'm not sure why people complain about US companies complying with US government subpoenas. Isn't that how it is supposed to work? Imagine if the opposite were routine, would you like that?…

It's more nuanced than "the federal government is too powerful." I feel more like non-law-enforcement agencies like ICE are too powerful right now, but I also believe that the FBI and the DOJ had a good mandate that should be preserved. And I also believe that antitrust needs to be a high priority. Please don't lump me in with people who just want to tear it all down so they can live in a fiefdom. There are good peop…

If you've had a 100%-tolerance policy to illegal immigration for years then that's the government not being powerful enough, or not using its power to the correct level for its citizens. If there's a better, gentler fix for illegal immigration then everyone would absolutely love that, but it's such a huge thing to tackle due to the previous years' encouraging of illegal migration.

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#168

Post by fakedang »

philipallstar wrote: post #163
shevy-java wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how what has been described here as "the system works as intended". A free state should not be able to sniff after people for made up reasons.

In the sense that all reasons are made up, I suppose that might be true. But while deporting illegal immigrants for no other reason is totally fine, deporting the ones that also have a criminal conviction is definitely not made up reasons.

Yeah, and your point? ICE has already descended into detaining anyone, literally anyone, because they have quotas to meet. They seized a white Irishman last October who had a valid work permit and was just about to head to his green card interview.

This is Gestapo all over again.

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#169

Post by jsrozner »

"full extent of the information...including any IP masking services"

This suggests that Google aggregates derived information based on how a user uses Google (i.e. VPN info). The fact that derived info was also potentially passed along is particularly upsetting to me.

Aside from the fact that I don't think companies should be able to collect user data at all (if you disagree, I think there's a good chance you're at least a little bit fascist), this amounts to Google providing free surveillance services to the government.

If you squint, it's minority-report-esque: eventually Google will tell the govt who it thinks is likely to commit crimes based on how they interact with its AIs. Almost certainly coming to a society near you soon.

Post reply on HN