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WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

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Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#161

Post by Noaidi »

thesuitonym wrote: post #93
notepad0x90 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but things could be refined. With more resources and research thrown at it, it could become more versatile, that's why the title of the post says "could". And chances are, there are private and government entities already doing this. Research like this has been coming out for at least a decade now. Even Xfinity has motion detection in homes using this technique now: https://www.xfinity.com/hub/smart-home/wifi-mo…

Yeah, it can and will be refined, but the major limiting factor is resolution. Wi-Fi radio waves are just too big to get a very clear image.

6 cm is too big? It’s big enough to get an idea of people moving around. And what about the 5 cm wave of 6G Wi-Fi?

But then we can talk about all the millimeterwave signals that are bouncing around everywhere.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#162

Post by anu7df »

XorNot wrote: post #107
mvanbaak wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

for now ...

No this is fixed by physics. 5ghz waves are about 60mm wavelength. Your resolution limit is about 30mm as a result.

Add a nice prior from a photograph, combine multiple measurements and presto you can pick out a person from a crowd with reasonable accuracy. No?

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#164

Post by pavelstoev »

In a dynamically changing environment (from the perspective of Wi-Fi signal), this will be difficult but not impossible with modern applications of ML algorithms. We worked on this technique back in 2016-18 at the University of Toronto WIRLab; take a look at the results video from back then. I think the person is somewhat identifiable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTOUBUhC0Cg

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#166

Post by BobbyTables2 »

Noaidi wrote: post #161
thesuitonym wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it can and will be refined, but the major limiting factor is resolution. Wi-Fi radio waves are just too big to get a very clear image.

6 cm is too big? It’s big enough to get an idea of people moving around. And what about the 5 cm wave of 6G Wi-Fi? But then we can talk about all the millimeterwave signals that are bouncing around everywhere.

What about 5G cellular? It already supports millimeterwave bands!

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#167

Post by HNisCIS »

If you have a phone in your hand the wifi isn't what's surveiling you. At least with wifi routers it's much easier to control what software is running on the device relative to an iOS or android device.

As someone in the RF world, there are way more concerning emerging threats that are much harder to mitigate.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#168

Post by kccqzy »

palata wrote: post #125
kccqzy wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First this is not just Android. Apple does the same thing. You can buy an iPad which physically does not have any GPS hardware and it can reasonably tell you where you are. Personally I first learned of this feature when I bought a second-generation iPad, so it’s been there a while ago. Second, it is a logical leap to assume Google knows everything already. They could for example build this nearby Wi-Fi based locatio…

> Second, it is a logical leap to assume Google knows everything already. They could for example build this nearby Wi-Fi based location querying API with privacy in mind In which world are you living? > It is tired and lazy to argue that just because some Big Tech has the capability of doing something bad therefore they must already be doing it. It has the capability of doing something bad, and it has a history of do…

As a former Google employee, I had witnessed first hand how powerful the internal privacy working groups were and how much they were able to push back against product teams when they not only demanded more privacy on new features but also invented many of the privacy techniques that made things possible. It’s frankly not even hard to find Google authors of RFCs that meaningfully contribute to Internet privacy.

No matter what you think, no stranger on the internet can convince to ignore my own lived experience.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#169

Post by insane_dreamer »

Ancapistani wrote: post #148
woodrowbarlow wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the article is off-base with wifi. the real story is in 6G cellular. there is a working group at 3gpp, an EU-funded research group (6th sense, Open6GHub), universities (NCSU, Bristol), and many companies working very hard right now on proposals to include "integrated/joint sensing and communication" (ISAC/JCAS) in the 6G spec. ISAC means adding mmWave to 6G (ostensibly for speed, but also) to build a high-fidelity 3d…

Great. Now you’re telling me the chicken wire embedded in my walls isn’t sufficient, and I’m going to have to go with grounded sheet metal?

underground bunker

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#170

Post by bothlabs »

Having worked with ML-based sensing for years, what stands out here isn't the accuracy (near 100%), it's the simplicity. No specialized hardware, no cameras, no cooperation from the target needed. Just passive observation of unencrypted beamforming feedback that every modern router already broadcasts.

The window to embed privacy protections into the IEEE 802.11bf standard is closing. Once this is ratified without safeguards, retrofitting privacy will be much harder.

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