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Amazon One palm authentication discontinued

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Re: Amazon One palm authentication discontinued

#161
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know that there is much technology to sell, palm vein imaging is decades old in the access control industry. The reason you don't see it anywhere is because it was already a commercial failure in that application, by the end of the 1990s. Amazon was even trying to sell the technology for access control applications, but their sales material were remarkably devoid of any reason to choose it over other biometri…

Out of curiosity, why did it fail in that market?

Biometrics were a very crowded market during the 1980s and 1990s when it was a newer idea and electronics were starting to make things practical. Lots of ideas were tossed around before the industry pretty well consolidated on fingerprints with a side of iris imaging and hand geometry in some more security-sensitive niches. It mostly came down to cost: fingerprint scanners, even before the modern capacitative type, came down in price much faster than other types of imaging (visible rather than IR sensors, glass platen allowed for fixed focus, etc). The widespread use of fingerprint comparison in criminal forensics also mean that there's an older and stronger academic literature on fingerprint comparison, whereas other types of biometric sensors often involve proprietary match algorithms and you have to rely on the vendor's assertions about reliability.

Of course everything around cameras has come down in cost tremendously since then, so palm imaging is probably reasonably priced now, but it lacks a clear enough advantage over better-established methods for anyone to switch over. Besides, just the fact that you have to position your palm the way you do makes it difficult to install them in most practical door situations. Fingerprint sensors turn out to be very compact and fairly intuitive to use.

I scoured Amazon's sales materials around Amazon One very closely, because I found it fascinating that they were seemingly trying to revive the technique. I was surprised they were doing it as a payment device, but it made more sense when I found materials (I think old FCC filings) that suggested that it was originally designed as an access control product and perhaps "pivoted" to payments later. The strangest thing about it though was how unconvincing the sales materials were, it felt like they were really grasping at straws for a reason to select it over other options.

From what I could find it doesn't appear to have been an acquisition; the regulatory paperwork was all filed under some LLC but it seemed to just be a front company for Amazon which is fairly common for that kind of thing. So my best guess is that it was a pet project of someone influential enough to burn some R&D on it, and maybe pivoting to payments and putting them in Whole Foods was thought to maybe be the hail Mary that would turn it into a real business.

The actual integration with the PoS in the stores was clumsy too, they Velcro'd an NFC antenna to the side of the credit card terminal to use to make payments by proxy card. I originally got obsessed with it because I was trying to ID the suspicious device Velcro'd to the payment terminals at Whole Foods!

Re: Amazon One palm authentication discontinued

#162
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It all boils down to the tradeoff between convenience and security. I don't think it is particularly easy to replicate a living hand with all the blood vessels. And it is not particularly easy to get a NFC ring with a secure element compatible with payment terminals. I thought that the engineering team at Amazon did a great job with Amazon One. I wish someone could pick up the tech and carry on.

Yeah 25 years ago people said stuff like that about fingerprint scanners, and then they got hacked by literal gummy bears: https://www.theregister.com/2002/05/16/gummi_bears_defeat_fi... For 2020's-era palm scanners you don't have to replicate a 3D hand -- just like a video chat doesn't replicate my 3D face. You just have to emit photons (some of them infrared, yes) in the correct pattern. The hack won't look like a…

I agree and I get it. But at the same time, it is only used for payment and discounts at grocery store. Payment with a card is even less secure here in US. So, I do not think that Amazon Go was particularly unsecured since it was just for credit card payment.

If someone manages to replicate my pulsing blood vessels from my hand and trick the scanner, that would be fine. I would dispute the purchase, and the store would not even pull the camera footage, and just refund.

Amazon Go was not used to hold access to bank accounts or crypto wallets. I think it was a good technology and balance between convenience and security, for the purpose (grocery loyalty and payment).

A twin or even sometimes a relative (son and mother) can open an iphone and its banking apps using the facial recognition. That is more concerning to me than Amazon Go palm scanning for groceries.

Re: Amazon One palm authentication discontinued

#163

I've always wondered what the play was with these. I can tap my card. I can tap my phone. I never leave home without either of those. I can't use Amazon One online, it's purely a retail thing. I need the thing it's replacing in order to onboard. So... Why? If this came around on 2010, it would have been a hit. Maybe even 2015. Now, it's simply redundant, or something more nefarious (but I can't imagine how).

Wasn't it obvious? One of Amazon's founding focuses was "make it stupidly easy to pay us." They went overboard to make it easy to buy things. The most obvious is their infamously patented "one click" purchasing, but there were lots of other things. For example, in the early days, they would let you create as many accounts with the same email address as you wanted because "sorry, an account with that email already exists" was an error that might keep you from purchasing.

The Amazon stores were the ultimate physical expression of this ideal. Walk into a store, pick up what you want, wave your hand vaguely at a scanner, leave. If they could have reliably gotten your ID without your involvement at all, they would've done that instead, but the hand scanner was the closest they could come.

There's nothing malicious about it. They just want you to be able to consume as easily as possible with as little friction or opportunities for second thoughts as possible.

Re: Amazon One palm authentication discontinued

#164
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm completely unfamiliar with these, but it seems like you need to press your palm against the device, no? The doctor's office is the last place I'd want to do that.

You don't need to press your palm, you just hover it over the plate for a moment. I think the hardware is just an IR illuminator+camera. It does seem like a technology that should have a useful niche. Unlike fingerprints you don't leave partial copies of your vein pattern on everything you touch; unlike face recognition it's an explicit act you take so it can be used for attestation-type actions (like paying). It sti…

Ah, that makes a lot more sense. Thank you.

Re: Amazon One palm authentication discontinued

#165
post #85
post #77

The tech here was good but the product implementation was terrible. These scanners just showed up randomly in places and just sat there unused. I literally both saw them all over and never actually saw anyone use it. No clear onboarding pathway, no explanation as to what it did or why use it, no clarity on what happens to the data. Just a box sitting there. It was as if all the focus was on the tech and nobody bother…

What problem was it solving though? NFC contactless payments is already pretty fast and convenient. I feel like Amazon One Palm was invented to solve for a problem we didn't really have. Thus the failure.

It solved Amazon’s blind spots regarding detailed purchase information and biometric collection in a way that could give them datasets from merchants who weren’t otherwise providing data to Amazon. No intrinsic benefits at all to consumers that I know of, though; presumably leading to zero adoption and why they ended it.

Re: Amazon One palm authentication discontinued

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now I've got to slowly type in my phone number for Prime Haven't the (big) supermarkets in the US adopted the whole "scan and go" thing that lots of countries in Europe have had for a long time? (maybe more than a decade at this point I think) When I go to the supermarket, right after the entrance, I pick up a scanner, then as I pick stuff, I scan them and pack them. Then when I'm done, you scan a code, give back t…

To be fair with scan & go you still have to scan your membership card which would be the equivalent of typing in your phone number. But most retail tech in the US is suuuuper backwards. They were still signing credit card receipts until very recently. The way you pay for petrol/gas is bonkers.

> The way you pay for petrol/gas is bonkers.

That needs to be past tense. At most gas stations now you can just tap your credit card and start pumping. Unless you’re in a state like New Jersey, which still has a law that an employee has to pump for you.

Re: Amazon One palm authentication discontinued

#167
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What problem was it solving though? NFC contactless payments is already pretty fast and convenient. I feel like Amazon One Palm was invented to solve for a problem we didn't really have. Thus the failure.

There are certain enterprise applications that particularly like biometrics. Gym entry system where you can't share your entry fob with a buddy Corporate access control system, no need for a guard to deal with people who've forgotten their cards. Time clock where it's impossible for workers to clock other people in/out.

My gym in Seattle used this, and it was great. I often forgot bringing my fob, and not needing to explain to the frontdesk person was fantastic.

Re: Amazon One palm authentication discontinued

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Walk me through it. Why do you have all these steps to pay at a supermarket? When I am here in the UK, I wave my phone over the card reader, it goes "Pling!" and that's my stuff paid for. Of course, it's different elsewhere. When I am over in Austria, I wave my phone over the card reader, it goes "Pling!" and that's my stuff paid for, but this time in Euros , at the going exchange rate.

You don't. As others have pointed out you can pay like normal. Even if you want to get Prime discounts all you need to do is have the card on your Amazon account. No scanning codes or typing in phone numbers is needed.

So, it's someone making a fuss over their favourite means of handing their biometric data to Evil Megacorp being broken?

Re: Amazon One palm authentication discontinued

#169
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are certain enterprise applications that particularly like biometrics. Gym entry system where you can't share your entry fob with a buddy Corporate access control system, no need for a guard to deal with people who've forgotten their cards. Time clock where it's impossible for workers to clock other people in/out.

My gym in Seattle used this, and it was great. I often forgot bringing my fob, and not needing to explain to the frontdesk person was fantastic.

Also in Seattle and at my gym I scan a barcode off my phone and keep my personal biometric data secure. It’s great. Fantastically, no need to explain anything to a front desk person, either.

I’m team “solution in search of a problem”

Re: Amazon One palm authentication discontinued

#170
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A richer zip code and safer streets and you won't need either!

[flagged]

Mayberry’s Mayberry ‘til it ain’t no more. Don’t matter how far out in the sticks you are. Yer askin for trouble.

Just ask the Clutter family. Oop, you can’t.

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