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France passes bill to ban social media use by under-15s

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Re: France passes bill to ban social media use by under-15s

#161

Post by heavyset_go »

Nursie wrote: post #139
heavyset_go wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being discriminated against by the government sucks, and so does getting locked out of the main way the world communicates in the 21st century. I don't blame a 14 year old for not handling a violation of their rights in a mature manner.

Or, just hear me out, or it might be actual withdrawal symptoms as the source of dopamine spikes is withdrawn, which is what it seems to look like.

Or, just hear me out, this is what a moral panic looks like on social media.

I'm going to be honest: I don't believe the story, it reads exactly like what someone who banned their kids from video games, TV or texting would say 20 years ago, even if the kid didn't have what everyone, including you, is assuming is an "addiction", despite being wholly unqualified to diagnose such a thing, let alone over the internet through a 2nd hand story lol.

To quote the top replies to that thread:

> Ironic that OP turns to social media for support because her kid’s access to said support has been removed.

And

> We need to remember that this is the societal structure of their world and it is also the only one they have ever known - then in a single evening, it was gone. But also, not for everyone; so injustice is now mixed in to the equation.

> She's going to need time to adjust and she's also going to need ways to stay in contact with her friends, because at the end of the day that is what she is upset about: the loss of social contact.

I'd examine why you're so willing to believe what you read on social media despite the lack of real data and evidence towards the claims you're accepting at face value.

Re: France passes bill to ban social media use by under-15s

#162

Post by zmmmmm »

I wish it could be more granular and ban the actual toxic elements rather than the concept as a whole. In general, people communicating with each other and forming social relationships is good. I get that it is hard to create granular laws that don't then get worked around. But I would predict that banning social media and not the toxic elements of it just means those same toxic elements will now shift to the nearest non-banned form and take root and grow from there. Then we will be banning that, and the next thing and the next ...

Re: France passes bill to ban social media use by under-15s

#163

Post by King-Aaron »

mattmark wrote: post #51
King-Aaron wrote: post #15

I don't like the idea of centralised digital ID for the obvious surveillance/privacy arguments and think that side of the conversation needs to be focused on. BUT, I also think that the Social Media experiment has shown that social media in general really, really sucks. It sucks for adults but it's objectively damaging to kids. So like, I am all for restricting kids from it, and honestly I'd happily see it regulated…

I’d like good social media regulated into existence. Let people take their data, move to a different service, set up redirects, have some meaningful ways to customize or reject algorithms, etc. I don’t think it’s likely to happen but one can hope.

Yeah I like this framing too. Personally I like parts of social media, and there must be ways to achieve a good balance. I just imagine it wouldn't be 'profitable'.

Re: France passes bill to ban social media use by under-15s

#164

Post by Nursie »

heavyset_go wrote: post #161
Nursie wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, just hear me out, or it might be actual withdrawal symptoms as the source of dopamine spikes is withdrawn, which is what it seems to look like.

Or, just hear me out, this is what a moral panic looks like on social media. I'm going to be honest: I don't believe the story, it reads exactly like what someone who banned their kids from video games, TV or texting would say 20 years ago, even if the kid didn't have what everyone, including you, is assuming is an "addiction", despite being wholly unqualified to diagnose such a thing, let alone over the internet thr…

> Or, just hear me out, this is what a moral panic looks like on social media.

Could be, could be, except moral panics are usually absent evidence, whereas here we have meta's own researchers discovering and attempting to suppress the knowledge that people become addicted -

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/meta-researchers-private...

Or evidence that "Company documents cited in the complaint described several Meta officials acknowledging the company designed its products to exploit shortcomings in youthful psychology" -

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/nov/27/meta-inst...

There's also research into its mental health consequences (a single example of many pieces of research available) -

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36219756/

And legal opinions (the references on this one are good and contain further information on the poor mental health outcomes associated with youth social media use) -

https://law.stanford.edu/2024/05/20/social-media-addiction-a...

Not to mention ongoing courtcases etc.

Dismissing this as "moral panic" seems wrong with that background of well-grounded concern.

> To quote the top replies to that thread:

Those are neither the best nor the top replies, why did you feel the need to misrepresent that?

> I'd examine why you're so willing to believe what you read on social media despite the lack of real data and evidence towards the claims you're accepting at face value.

I'd examine why you're so keen to ignore the real data and evidence in favour of your moral panic theory.

Re: France passes bill to ban social media use by under-15s

#165

Post by Nursie »

ottah wrote: post #149
mrexroad wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the social media of today don't seem all that much different from the internet forums of back in the day I’m not trying to be a jerk, but did you actually participate in “Internet forums back in the day?” I couldn’t think of anything more different than contemporary social media. Internet forums in late 90’s and early 00’s were something special. Hell, I had more “internet friends” from online forums attend my wedd…

You are definitely remembering the past with rose tented glasses, because it very much was not as wholesome and safe as your describing.

Did they describe them as either wholesome or safe?

To me the difference is in the doom-scrolling, the shoving rage-bait in your face and the gaming for addictiveness.

Old-school forums, whether they were wholesome or not, didn't do that stuff. Hell, I used to be on Kuro5hin, which was incredibly toxic, but I have IRL friends from there and it just wasn't the same as doom-scrolling through algorithmically selected influencers while meta/tiktok shoved ads in my face.

Re: France passes bill to ban social media use by under-15s

#166

Post by Nursie »

thrance wrote: post #155
Nursie wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.reddit.com/r/perth/comments/1pmvcml/my_14yo_is_l... I think it depends on your definition of withdrawal, but it seems that some teens did experience something analagous to it here in Australia. I think this counts in favour of the ban, myself.

It's certainly an interesting story. I'd still take it with a grain of salt, as often this kind of Reddit family story is closer to an exercise in creative writing than anything else, but that's besides the point. I remember a communication by the World Health Organization that concluded that social media and video games are not addictive like drugs are, because they don't cause chemical withdrawal when immediately s…

Where exactly the line is between 'withdrawal' and anxiety caused by a sudden, non-voluntary change in habits, I'm not sure, but I'd say that the one looks very like a symptom of the other.

If we're willing to admit gambling to the list of things that can be addictive, then I'm not sure why other dopamine-related compulsive activities shouldn't be treated the same. Restlessness is well known as a gambling withdrawal symptom.

Re: France passes bill to ban social media use by under-15s

#167

Post by mattmark »

Nursie wrote: post #94
mattmark wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d like good social media regulated into existence. Let people take their data, move to a different service, set up redirects, have some meaningful ways to customize or reject algorithms, etc. I don’t think it’s likely to happen but one can hope.

That would be nice. Maybe take it back to a time when it was about forming and maintaining interpersonal connections rather than 'following' influencers and peddling ragebait.

Absolutely. What’s weird it seems that current form of social media encourages this behavior - and yet we don’t seem to explore doing the opposite.

Re: France passes bill to ban social media use by under-15s

#168

Post by Otterly99 »

softg wrote: post #77
energy123 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're doing this because it's bad for teen mental health, and polls keep showing 70% support and 15% opposition.

Why just teens though? Getting manipulated by algorithms crafted to maximize screentime and ad revenue is bad for anyone. These platforms rely on ads to survive. Which means it should be easy to regulate them. You can prevent them from selling ads at which point they will be forced to comply. If they don't, someone else will get the ad revenue. Europe is already hostile towards american tech giants anyways. The possi…

Probably because:

- Banning things for non-adults is easier, they don't vote. - In the eyes of the law, social media is now seen as cigarettes and alcohol. Something teenagers should not be allowed to have access to, but is fair game once you are adult.

I don't fully agree with the ban for the same reasons you cited, but knowing that social media companies (mostly facebook and youtube) have known for years that their platform have been used for spreading radicalization (source: the book "The chaos machine") and have dodged any accountability, maybe it is a good solution after all, it is hard to say...

Re: France passes bill to ban social media use by under-15s

#169

Post by johnisgood »

Nursie wrote: post #166
thrance wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's certainly an interesting story. I'd still take it with a grain of salt, as often this kind of Reddit family story is closer to an exercise in creative writing than anything else, but that's besides the point. I remember a communication by the World Health Organization that concluded that social media and video games are not addictive like drugs are, because they don't cause chemical withdrawal when immediately s…

Where exactly the line is between 'withdrawal' and anxiety caused by a sudden, non-voluntary change in habits, I'm not sure, but I'd say that the one looks very like a symptom of the other. If we're willing to admit gambling to the list of things that can be addictive, then I'm not sure why other dopamine-related compulsive activities shouldn't be treated the same. Restlessness is well known as a gambling withdrawal…

If everything that people do out of habit and like and you taking it away causes withdrawal, then .... What is the significance of this at this point?

Re: France passes bill to ban social media use by under-15s

#170

Post by johnisgood »

tokioyoyo wrote: post #74
johnisgood wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have not learnt anything from the war on drugs, even though many people compare social media to drugs.

Very off-topic, but war on drugs failed in NA, but is successful in East Asia. It really depends on government and how they handle it. I’m not American, but my understanding of war on drugs was also that it wasn’t just about drugs, might be wrong.

Yes, decriminalization and harm reduction seems to work in a few places where it has been implemented for ages now.

I mean, there are still many places in Europe where you can go to prison for years for smoking weed. The life ruined because you smoked an illegal plant in your own home.

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