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Proof of Corn

proofofcorn.com

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Re: Proof of Corn

#161
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn't they be able to eventually set it up to work autonomously? A simple github action could run a check every $t hour to check on the status, and an orchestrator is only really needed once initially to set up the if>then decision tree.

That still doesn't seem autonomous in any real way though. There are people that I could hire in the real world, give $10k (I dunno if that's enough, but you understand what I mean) and say "Do everything necessary to grow 500 bushels of corn by October", and I would have corn in October. There are no AI agents where that's even close to true. When will that be possible?

Given enough time and money the chatbots we call "AI" today could contact and pay enough people that corn would happen. At some point it'll eventually have spammed and paid the right person who would manage everything necessary themselves after the initial ask and payment. Most people would probably just pocket the cash and never respond though.

Re: Proof of Corn

#162
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. This whole process still appears to have a human as the ultimate outer loop. Still an interesting experiment to see how much of the tasks involved can be handled by an agent. But unless they've made a commitment not to prompt the agent again until the corn is grown , it's really a human doing it with agentic help, not Claude working autonomously.

Why wouldn't they be able to eventually set it up to work autonomously? A simple github action could run a check every $t hour to check on the status, and an orchestrator is only really needed once initially to set up the if>then decision tree.

You only want to apply expensive fungicide when there is a fungus problem. That means someone needs to go out to the field and check - at least today. You don't want to harvest until the corn is dry, someone needs to check the progress of drying before - today the farmer hand harvest a few cobs of corn from various parts of the field to check. There are lots of other things the farmer is checking that we don't have sensors for - we could but they would be too expensive.

Re: Proof of Corn

#163
post #22

The point they seem to be making is that AI can "orchestrate" the real world even if it can't interact physically. I can definitely believe that in 2026 someone at their computer with access to money can send the right emails and make the right bank transfers to get real people to grow corn for you. However even by that metric I don't see how Claude is doing that. Seth is the one researching the suppliers "with the h…

Anthropic tried that with a vending machine. The Claude instance managing it ended up ordering tungsten cubes and selling them at a loss. https://www.anthropic.com/research/project-vend-1

Re: Proof of Corn

#164
post #111
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can find such custom operators - but those are not deal made over the internet, they are made in person with a handshake. Generally the cost to get all the equipment there is - in a good year - all of your possible profit for something that small. Tractors are slow on the road. Once the tractor is there the implement needs to unfold (best case - worse case your combine header is pulled in via a separate truck and…

Agreed. Growing up on a small farm (~1120 acres) our garden alone was probably at least 5 acres in size. It's laughably small, the only way he'll succeed is for a neighbouring farmer to take pity on him.

If a neighboring farmer needs a bit of cash, has some land or equipment, and gets an email (or phone call!) from farmerfred@proofofcorn.com reading generally:

> I'm about to lease some acreage at {address near you} and willing to pay {competitive rate} to hire someone to work that land for me, are you interested?

I see no reason why that couldn't eventually succeed. I'm sure that being an out-of-state investor who doesn't have any physical hands to finalize the deal with a handshake is an impediment, but with enough tokens, Farmer Fred could make 100,000 phone calls and send out 100,000 emails to every landowner and work-for-hire equipment operator in Iowa, Texas, and Argentina by this afternoon. If there exists a human who would make that deal, Fred can eventually find them. Seth would be limited in his chance to succeed in these efforts because he can only make one 1-minute phone call per minute, Fred can become as many callers as Anthropic owns GPUs.

I do find it amusing that Fred currently shows the following dashboard:

    Iowa
    HOLD
    0°F
    Unknown (API error)
    Fred's Thinking: “Iowa is frozen solid. Been through worse. We wait.”

     Fred is here
    South Texas
    HOLD
    0°F
    Unknown (API error)
    Fred's Thinking: “South Texas is frozen solid. Been through worse. We wait.”

    Argentina
    HOLD
    0°F
    Unknown (API error)
    Fred's Thinking: “Argentina is frozen solid. Been through worse. We wait.”
Any human Fred might call in the Argentinian summer or 70F South Texas winter weather is not going to gain confidence when Fred tries to build rapport through some small talk about the unseasonably cold weather...

Re: Proof of Corn

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can definitely believe that in 2026 someone at their computer with access to money can send the right emails and make the right bank transfers to get real people to grow corn for you. I think this is the new turing test. Once it's been passed we will have AGI and all the Sam Altmans of the world will be proven correct. (This isn't a perfect test obviously, but neither was the turing test) If it fails to pass we w…

Researchers love to reduce everything into formulae, and believe that when they have the right set of formulae, they can simulate something as-is. Hint: It doesn't work that way. Another hint: I'm a researcher. Yes, we have found a great way to compress and remix the information we scrape from the internet, and even with some randomness, looks like we can emit the right set of tokens which makes sense, or search the…

  > Hint: It doesn't work that way.
I mean... technically it would work this way but, and this is a big but, reality is extremely complicated and a model that can actually be a reliable formula has to be extremely complicated. There's almost certainly no globally optimal solutions to these types of problems, not to mention that the solution space is constantly changing as the world does. I mean this is why we as humans and all animals work in probabilistic frameworks that are highly adaptable. Human intuition. Human ingenuity. We simply haven't figured out how to make models at that level of sophistication. Not even in narrow domains! What AI has done is undeniably impressive, wildly impressive even. Which is why I'm so confused why we embellish it so much.

It's really easy to think everything is easy when we look at problems from 40k feet. But as you come down to Earth the complexity exponentially increases and what was a minor detail is now a major problem. As you come down resolution increases and you see major problems that you couldn't ever see from 40k feet.

As a researcher, I agree very much with you. And as an AI researcher one of the biggest issues I've noticed with AI is that they abhor detail and nuance. Granted, this is common among humans too (and let's not pretend CS people don't have a stereotype of oversimplification and thinking all things are easy). While people do this frequently they also don't usually do it in their niche domains, and if they are we call them juniors. You get programmers thinking building bridges is easy[0] while you get civil engineers thinking writing programs is easy. Because each person understands the other's job only at 40k feet and are reluctant to believe they are standing so high[1]. But AI? It really struggles with detail. It really struggles with adaptation. You can get detail out but it often requires significant massaging and it'll still be a roll of the dice[2]. You also can get the AI to change course, a necessary thing as projects evolve[3]. Anyone who's tried vibe coding knows the best thing to do is just start over. It's even in Anthropic's suggestion guide.

My problem with vibe coding is that it encourages this overconfidence. AI systems still have the exact same problem computer systems do: they do exactly what you tell them to. They are better at interpreting intent but that blade cuts both ways. The major issue is you can't properly evaluate a system's output unless you were entirely capable of generating the output. The AI misses the details. Doubt me? Look at Proof of Corn! The fred page is saying there's an API error[4]. The sensor page doesn't make sense (everything there is fine for an at home hobby project but anyone that's worked with those parts knows how unreliable they are. Who's going to do all the soldering? You making PCBs? Where's the circuit to integrate everything? How'd we get to $300? Where's the detail?). Everything discussed is at a 40k foot view.

[0] https://danluu.com/cocktail-ideas/

[1] I'm not sure why people are afraid of not knowing things. We're all dumb as shit. But being dumb as shit doesn't mean we aren't also impressive and capable of genius. Not knowing something doesn't make you dumb, it makes you human. Depth is infinite and we have priorities. It's okay to have shallow knowledge, often that's good enough.

[2] As implied, what is enough detail is constantly up for debate.

[3] No one, absolutely nobody, has everything figured out from the get-go. I'll bet money none of you have written a (meaningful) program start to finish from plans, ending up with exactly what you expect, never making an error, never needing to change course, even in the slightest.

Edit:

[4] The API issue is weird and the more I look at the code the more weird things are. Like there's a file decision-engine/daily_check.py that has a comment to set a cron job to run every 8 hours. It says to dump data to logs/daily.log but that file doesn't exist but it will write to logs/all_checks.jsonl which appears to have the data. So why in the world is it reading https://farmer-fred.sethgoldstein.workers.dev/weather?

Re: Proof of Corn

#167
It's an interesting concept, but I'm skeptical about how feasible this is. How much design/legwork/intervention will Seth actually contribute during the entire process? I'm thinking "growing corn" might be a little hard for a proof of concept, specifically because the time horizon is quite long. Something a little more short term like: contracting a landscaping job. The model comes up with design ideas, contacts landscapers, gets bids, accepts a bid. Seth could tell the model that he's it's agent, available to sign for things, walk people through the property, etc, but will make no decisions, and is only reachable by email or text.

Re: Proof of Corn

#168

HN type "about the website itself, not it's content" comment but ... it would be great if we could somehow get the major browser vendors to agree on some monospaced fonts. I'm on M1 Mac and the small ASCII diagram, nothing lines up (Safari/Firefox/Chrome). I see this on many ASCII diagrams. Maybe that's the site's fault. Not sure)

The diagram looks correct for me when I disable CSS on the page or edit it's font-family to be "monospace". Seems like Geist Mono might just be borked.

Re: Proof of Corn

#169
I reckon producing corn in the Midwest would be the most researched and documented crop and location ever in history. So baked into an LLM should be some very good knowledge and assumptions. Growing a different crop elsewhere may be more challenging.

Re: Proof of Corn

#170
post #22

The point they seem to be making is that AI can "orchestrate" the real world even if it can't interact physically. I can definitely believe that in 2026 someone at their computer with access to money can send the right emails and make the right bank transfers to get real people to grow corn for you. However even by that metric I don't see how Claude is doing that. Seth is the one researching the suppliers "with the h…

Another way to look at it is that Seth is a Tool that Claude can leverage.

If that were the case Claude would have come up with the idea to grow corn and it would have reached out to Seth and be giving Seth prompts. That's clearly not what happened though so it's pretty obvious who is leveraging which tool here.

It also doesn't help that Claude is incapable of coming up with an idea, incapable of wanting corn, and has no actual understanding of what corn is.

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