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We might have been slower to abandon StackOverflow if it wasn't a toxic hellhole

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Re: We might have been slower to abandon StackOverflow if it wasn't a toxic hellhole

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is seeing the past with rose tinted glasses, it’s not like SO was on the cutting edge of computer science. The world is probably better off that we don’t need another 12 ways to develop a CRUD app or learn the framework of the month from gatekeepers with a bad attitude.

In fact, I think this is part of what lead to the downfall of SO. The moderation could be very aggressive with "duplicate" posts getting closed fast. The problem is sometimes the "solution" in the duplicate was either irrelevant or dated. Things like telling someone to us jQuery in 2020.

People keep saying this specifically about jQuery, but without any object examples.

Re: We might have been slower to abandon StackOverflow if it wasn't a toxic hellhole

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point isn't that you can trick an LLM, but that their capabilities are more strongly tied to training data than context. That's to say, when context and training disagree, training "wins". ("wins" isn't the correct wording, but hopefully you understand the point) This poses a problem for new frameworks/languages/whatever that do things in a wholly different way since we'll be forced to rely on context that will c…

What is an example of a framework that does things in a wholly different way? Everything I'm familiar with is a variation on well explored ideas from the 60s-70s. If you had someone familiar with every computer science concept, every textbook, every paper, etc. up to say 2010 (or even 2000 or earlier), along with deep experience using dozens of programming languages, and you sat them down to look at a codebase, what…

Even the differences between React and Svelte are big enough for this to be noticeable. And Svelte is actually present in the training data. Given the large amount of react training data, svelte performs significantly worse (yes, even when given the full official svelte llms.txt in the context)

Re: We might have been slower to abandon StackOverflow if it wasn't a toxic hellhole

#163
post #55

This may be a controversial take based on the last few years of SO discourse, but the strictness in SO was part of what made it a good resource. For a question asker, it could be really toxic. I've had toxic responses as well. The problem is, there are _a lot_ of bad questions that would pollute that site otherwise. For a case study into what it would look like if it invited all questions, look at many subreddits. I'…

> For a question asker, it could be really toxic. I've had toxic responses as well. The problem is, there are _a lot_ of bad questions that would pollute that site otherwise.

There were tons and tons of them anyway. If only we had the Staging Ground in 2012.

Re: We might have been slower to abandon StackOverflow if it wasn't a toxic hellhole

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Write "This sentence is green." in red sharpie and "This sentence is red" in green sharpie on a piece of paper. Show it to someone briefly and then hide it. Ask them what color the first sentence said it was and what color the second sentence was written in. Another one: ask a person to say 'silk' 5 times, then ask them what cows drink. Exploiting such quirks only tells you that you can trick people, not what their c…

The point isn't that you can trick an LLM, but that their capabilities are more strongly tied to training data than context. That's to say, when context and training disagree, training "wins". ("wins" isn't the correct wording, but hopefully you understand the point) This poses a problem for new frameworks/languages/whatever that do things in a wholly different way since we'll be forced to rely on context that will c…

But it doesn't pose a problem. You are extrapolating things that are not even correlated.

You started with 'they can't understand anything new' and then followed it up with 'because I can trick it with logic problems' which doesn't prove that.

Have you even tried doing what you say won't work?

Re: We might have been slower to abandon StackOverflow if it wasn't a toxic hellhole

#165
post #55

This may be a controversial take based on the last few years of SO discourse, but the strictness in SO was part of what made it a good resource. For a question asker, it could be really toxic. I've had toxic responses as well. The problem is, there are _a lot_ of bad questions that would pollute that site otherwise. For a case study into what it would look like if it invited all questions, look at many subreddits. I'…

StackOverflow was great because it's not like a support forum or a mailing list. It's more like a repository of knowledge. It's been extremely helpful to me when arriving from Google, and I've gotten a couple useful responses to my own questions either. Awesome resource. Where SO started failing in my opinion is when the "no duplicate questions" rule started to be interpreted as "it's a duplicate if the same or very…

> Where SO started failing in my opinion is when the "no duplicate questions" rule started to be interpreted as "it's a duplicate if the same or very similar question has ever been answered on the site".

What else could it mean? The entire point is that if you search for the question, you should always find the best version of that question. That only works by identifying it and routing all the others there.

> That caused too many questions to have outdated answers as the tech changes

You are, generally, supposed to put the new answer on the old question. (And make sure the question isn't written in a way that excludes new approaches. Limitations to use a specific library are generally not useful in the long term.)

Of course, working with some libraries and frameworks is practically like working in a different language; those get their own tags, and a question about doing it without that framework is considered distinct as long as everyone is doing their jobs properly. The meta site exists so that that kind of thing can be hashed out and agreed upon.

> C# questions have answers that were current for .NET Core 1.0 and should be modified.

No; they should be supplemented. The old answers didn't become wrong as long as the system is backwards-compatible.

The problem is mainly technical: Stack Overflow lacked a system to deprecate old answers, and for far too long the preferred sort was purely based on score. But this also roped in a social problem: high scores attract more upvotes naturally, and most users are heavily biased against downvoting anything. In short, Reddit effects.

Re: We might have been slower to abandon StackOverflow if it wasn't a toxic hellhole

#166
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

StackOverflow was great because it's not like a support forum or a mailing list. It's more like a repository of knowledge. It's been extremely helpful to me when arriving from Google, and I've gotten a couple useful responses to my own questions either. Awesome resource. Where SO started failing in my opinion is when the "no duplicate questions" rule started to be interpreted as "it's a duplicate if the same or very…

This echoes my own experience. The very few times I attempted to post a question it was later flagged as duplicate, pointing to some other question which matched the keywords but didn't at all match the actual use case or problem. I don't know if this was the result of an automated process or zealous users, but it certainly put me off ever trying to engage with the community there.

Please show examples. I'll be happy to try to explain what happened.

Re: We might have been slower to abandon StackOverflow if it wasn't a toxic hellhole

#167

There should be a lesson for other communities but, unfortunately, there is none. StackOverflow used to be a fun and welcoming place in 2009. It became a toxic hellhole overtime There are no obvious flows in the original design, and there were no endemic wrongdoings in the governance either. It just rotted slowly like any other community does. And nobody in the world knows how to keep communities from becoming toxic.…

There are working recipes, but they're pretty much antithetical to growth.

Shirky's "A Group is its Own Worst Enemy" is highly relevant here.

Re: We might have been slower to abandon StackOverflow if it wasn't a toxic hellhole

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d reckon a set of mods with no superiority complex is one step though lol

And a vetted set of mods, put in place by the site’s leadership, with the power to overturn martinet decisions.

You mean, like, the actual moderators, overseeing the actions that people keep attributing to "moderators" who objectively are nothing of the sort?

It's honestly really frustrating to keep reading these takes.

Re: We might have been slower to abandon StackOverflow if it wasn't a toxic hellhole

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK, not a lot in HN gets outright removed. A decent amount of stuff will get flagged (and thus becomes invisible) especially when it's anywhere near politics. But even in those spaces, few things end up actually being flagged even when the flames are burning hot.

This is not my experience. So many comments are flagged and removed. It’s just popularity. I think it’s fine they are hidden by default. But unt we can see all removed comments we can’t understand the debate.

> I think it’s fine they are hidden by default. But unt we can see all removed comments we can’t understand the debate.

Do you have showdead on?

Re: We might have been slower to abandon StackOverflow if it wasn't a toxic hellhole

#170
post #146

The average answer writer on SO is not actually that toxic: really it's the voters. The top answer will almost always be an explanation of why the asker is wrong to want to do the thing they want to do. But that's not most answers, or most answerers, just the top ones. The bottom answer will almost always be an honest attempt to write code that answers the question. Sometimes the code doesn't work, or needs explanati…

Please show an example of a question following this pattern. That is radically different from my experience.
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