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Honey's Dieselgate: Detecting and tricking testers

vptdigital.com

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Re: Honey's Dieselgate: Detecting and tricking testers

#161

Post by ocschwar »

pixl97 wrote: post #125
ocschwar wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why we need Professional Engineer licenses for software. There are times when a product design needs to be reviewed and approved by someone who cares more about his license than about his job. It doesn't happen as often with software as it does with civil engineering, but often enough that it needs to become a thing.

This works great inside a country where said software must be written in the country for compliance reasons... How does is work for a fungible product that can be written anywhere and shipped at the speed of light?

The firmware for a diesel engine goes into a diesel engine. The company can be required to get a PE's signify for putting the firmware in. After that, if it's copied elsewhere, that's not their problem.

Re: Honey's Dieselgate: Detecting and tricking testers

#162

Post by ImPostingOnHN »

freeAgent wrote: post #123
ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spyware is software that sends information about the user (browsing history, etc) to a 3rd party. Many affiliate browser extensions do indeed do this, as an extra revenue stream. In fact, I'd recommend never installing a coupon browser extension. But replacing one number with another does not meet the above definition of spyware.

See Spyware: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malware "Programs designed to monitor users' web browsing, display unsolicited advertisements, *or redirect affiliate marketing revenues* are called spyware."

Well, that's clearly incorrect: software displaying unsolicited advertisements is called adware, and requires no spying at all.

> Spyware is a form of malware that hides on your device, monitors your activity, and steals sensitive information like bank details and passwords [0]

> Spyware is loosely defined as malicious software designed to enter your computer device, gather data about you, and forward it to a third-party without your consent. [1]

> Spyware is malicious software that secretly monitors your activity and collects sensitive information, like passwords, location data, or browsing habits, without your consent. [2][3]

0: https://www.malwarebytes.com/spyware

1: https://usa.kaspersky.com/resource-center/threats/spyware

2: https://us.norton.com/blog/malware/spyware

3: https://www.fortinet.com/resources/cyberglossary/spyware

Re: Honey's Dieselgate: Detecting and tricking testers

#163

Post by hinkley »

Aurornis wrote: post #29
Waterluvian wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what the engineers thought when doing design reviews for a "selective stand down" feature. Possibly a version of, “I lack the freedom to operate with a moral code at work because I’m probably replaceable, the job market makes me anxious, my family’s well-being and healthcare are tied to having a job, and I don’t believe the government has my back.”

From my experience, it’s more likely that the engineers who got far enough in the company to be working on this code believed that their willingness to work on nefarious tasks that others might refuse or whistle-blow made them a trusted asset within the company. In industries like this there’s also a mindset of “Who cares, it’s all going to corporations anyway, why not send some of that money to the corporation that…

Henchmen I think is the word you're looking for.

Re: Honey's Dieselgate: Detecting and tricking testers

#164

Post by TRiG_Ireland »

mikkupikku wrote: post #117
freehorse wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I click on an affiliate link that I want to use and the extension changes that without me knowing, that’s malware for me. The intent of the user may be to use a specific affiliate link.

What's the ratio of people deliberately clicking affiliate links, to people who just click links and have no clue what an affiliate link even is? I already thought Honey was scummy so I never used it in the first place, but I honestly don't get the particular outrage over these specific practices. You're already using the extension to effectively scam online stores, by using coupons the company gave to somebody else,…

People may well want to deliberately support a creator (influencer) they like.

Re: Honey's Dieselgate: Detecting and tricking testers

#165

Post by ndriscoll »

greiskul wrote: post #160
ndriscoll wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I'm not seeing any ethical issue with what Honey did/does. They reduced transaction costs (part of what went to middlemen now goes to the buyer) and helped block some level of surveillance. Sounds good to me. Far more ethical than the people running the tracking/ad programs in the first place.

So when a review channel goes and does lengthy and honest reviews of multiple brands of hardware, a consumer uses this resources to figure out what exactly they want to buy, clicks on the reviewers affiliate link to purchase, oh, thank goodness Honey is there to make sure the customer gets back 89 cents while it keeps the entire commission. That is absolutely not ethical. And if it is legal, it shouldn't be.

Correct, the whole affiliate system is ethically dubious, and the idea that someone can be trusted to produce honest, complete information about a topic when their message is paid for is unrealistic. Meanwhile, paid shills crowd out every space, making it more difficult to find actual honest information. They reduce signal and increase costs for everyone. It also relies on pervasive non-consensual tracking.

Simple consideration: how likely is a shill to tell you that you could save that extra $.89 by buying it from a store through which they get no commission? By using Honey? If they know those things, only telling you about their worse deal is not honest. Someone who's job it is to sell you things can never be a reliable source of information.

I already block or avoid affiliate tracking when possible (so the seller can avoid a commission). I'm not going to install something like Honey, but I'm not seeing the problem with those who do. Affiliate marketers are basically arbitragers collecting on buyers who don't know that the seller is willing to take a smaller price (at best. They also work to convince people to buy things they don't need). Honey is an arbitrager that takes less of the spread. That's good for the market.

Re: Honey's Dieselgate: Detecting and tricking testers

#166

Post by TRiG_Ireland »

constantcrying wrote: post #129

To be honest, the Megalag video really made it clear what a great product Honey is. It is very explicit about the fact that you, as the consumer, can get extraordinary deals by using the extension. This also makes me think that the whole campaign is astroturfed. The only "victims" of Honey are influencers and storefronts, who of course will do their part in trying to get their customers to stop using the product, but…

Honey promises to businesses to let them control which coupons are available, and promises to customers to always show them the best coupons. At least one of those two promises is a lie.

Re: Honey's Dieselgate: Detecting and tricking testers

#167

Post by hakfoo »

ndriscoll wrote: post #165
greiskul wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So when a review channel goes and does lengthy and honest reviews of multiple brands of hardware, a consumer uses this resources to figure out what exactly they want to buy, clicks on the reviewers affiliate link to purchase, oh, thank goodness Honey is there to make sure the customer gets back 89 cents while it keeps the entire commission. That is absolutely not ethical. And if it is legal, it shouldn't be.

Correct, the whole affiliate system is ethically dubious, and the idea that someone can be trusted to produce honest, complete information about a topic when their message is paid for is unrealistic. Meanwhile, paid shills crowd out every space, making it more difficult to find actual honest information. They reduce signal and increase costs for everyone. It also relies on pervasive non-consensual tracking. Simple co…

If the commission system was completely transparent, it could be part of a trust system.

A reviewer that said "I stand to receive $2.76 kickback if you buy the Magnavox TV, and $3.04 if you buy the Zenith, and I still recommend the Magnavox" would be a strong recommendation.

I'd also love to see the CPC/CPA price next to lead-generation ads. For example, that whole Medicate Advantage media blitz you see every year. I wouldn't be surprised if they generate triple-digit commissions per referral, and if customers knew there was that much money being thrown at the process, what impact would that have on their credibility?

Re: Honey's Dieselgate: Detecting and tricking testers

#168

Post by bedelman »

milkytron wrote: post #158
bedelman wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ben here. My real (substantive) write-up is https://vptdigital.com/blog/honey-detecting-testers/ . Happy to discuss / answer questions / etc.

In your interview with MegaLag posted in the video, you say something along the lines that civil courts are probably the most likely place any lawsuits would be held (I forget the exact wording used). If you had used Honey, would you join a civil or class action suit against them?

I believe in class actions as the most efficient way for large groups (of consumers or small businesses) to resolve disputes. Have to think about the specific claim. Yesterday's write-up covers a scheme harming other affiliates (creators, influencers, reviewers, etc.) and also harming merchants and networks. I don't know if users are direct victims of the stand-down violations and concealment.
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