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I'm returning my Framework 16

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Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#161

Post by jstummbillig »

comte7092 wrote: post #8

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only…

> In contrast, Framework laptops has many supposed benefits: they're upgradable, repairable

Why would you propose that the author does not care about these things? They clearly do, they are simply not a single issue voter – and who is, when buying something as complex as a laptop? There is a trade-off and the one that Framework made here is not hitting the mark for the author, and they go into some detail to explain as to why.

I am super excited about Framework stuff: They are clearly getting somewhere with this; it's nicer than anything that came before with comparable repairability. I think it's super plausible that we don't exhaust the physical limitations that arise through repairability before it's so nice, that the trade-off will be negligible for most folks.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#162

Post by The_President »

sillystuff wrote: post #159
Rebelgecko wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Framework seems to get worse battery life on Linux than Windows. Different tools like powertop help close the gap, but inevitably if I put the framework in a bag for a week, it'll be dead when I take it out

If your laptop is using a recent AMD Ryzen based SoC: ACPI C4 power state (for powering down more of the SoC during S0ix suspend) is not supported on Linux yet, for recent (last couple years) AMD processors. Patches submitted for 6.18 were described as "laying the foundation for AMD C4 support". So, maybe won't be fully supported until 6.19 or even later; Sorry, I haven't followed up to see what has actually landed.

Thank you - Good info

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#163

Post by monooso »

madeofpalk wrote: post #141
comte7092 wrote: post #8

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only…

Is it fair to say that maybe the author doesn't value repairability? Maybe they just want a 'premium' laptop in the way the Apple laptops are premium, but want x86 and Linux/Windows? Surely for as large as a market there is for Apple laptops there is for a non-macOS equivalent.

The author begins by stating that "the absolute nightmare that is opening [the X1 Carbon] up to replace parts or clean them properly" rules it out.

He then eliminates the MacBook because if "something needs replacing I basically have an expensive paperweight, because everything is soldered together".

This would suggest that the author does, in theory at least, value repairability.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#164

Post by tomComb »

INTPenis wrote: post #125

As a long time Linux user I only recently tried my first framework (12), and shortly after got the 13 too because I realized that this is the laptop for me. I wish I had realized it earlier. But it's so refreshing as a linux user to use a laptop actually designed for linux, and have everything work so great out of box like battery and wifi. Sure I've always used Laptops famously Linux-friendly, but it was still hit o…

Yes, that does sound good, but if someone wants an inexpensive laptop that is also “actually designed for Linux”, they should keep in mind Chromebooks. I don’t think of these as competitors to the framework, but as a lower end alternative that is usually overlooked.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#165

Post by kelnos »

DetectDefect wrote: post #34
comte7092 wrote: post #8

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only…

> an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine The market assigns almost no value to these tenets, nor do the consumers participating in it.

Your assertion seems to be trivially proven false, given that Framework still exists as a going concern.

Though I suppose what you say is perhaps still true, if you allow "almost" to do a lot of work.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#167

Post by trueismywork »

> The Framework 16 weights about 2.2 kg according to my kitchen scale. For comparison, my X1 Carbon weights 1.3 kg. That may not seem like a big difference, but the extra kilogram makes carrying around the Framework 16 more difficult. In particular, I don't feel comfortable carrying it with just one hand while this isn't a problem with the X1.

The author wanted a bigger laptop but the straight goes and compares it to x1 carbon.

Modular ports

> Like the keyboard area the design is a bit janky though, with visible lines/space between the adapters and the case, though this at least is something you won't notice unless you're explicitly looking for it.

Not sure how you can make things like this not to have any lines for what its worth. So not sure what author is going for.

The author doesnt know what he wants and doesn't know what framework provides.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#168

Post by kelnos »

casenmgreen wrote: post #39
aydyn wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author seems to be very aware of the benefit of upgradability, but thats not an excuse for the shoddy experience. Some of the issues the author mentions are just absurd. Sharp edges, panels that creak? Come on.

I have a 12th Gen 13. No problems like that.

I had a 12th-gen 13", and I had severe thermal throttling problems that took two years for Framework to resolve to my satisfaction (eventually they gave me a free 13th-gen upgrade that "solved" it).

I think the "I have X and don't see problems the author has" is a generally useless statement. Well, duh, sure, it's pretty rare that everyone will have the same problems. And some people will end up having no problems at all. But that doesn't invalidate the experiences of the people who do have problems.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#169

Post by duped »

systemtest wrote: post #92
ziml77 wrote: post #76

I probably should have returned mine. I still love the idea of the device, but the speakers, display, and trackpad are subpar. I get that I'm spoiled by the quality of a MacBook Pro in those areas, but they still feel worse than other laptops I've tried. Also he says he's never heard the fans spin up but I've had the system spin the fans up very high and they get loud. And the spin-up was definitely valid the times w…

Would be cool if Framework would sell speakers, a display, trackpad and housing comparable in quality to a MacBook Pro. It would have a high pricetag but you could slowly upgrade your machine. Especially since swapping out speakers or a trackpad is so easy. Right now the Laptop 13 speaker kit is €20 but they could offer a €150 option that performs similar to a MacBook Pro for people who value sound.

The problem is you need correction EQ built into to the drivers tuned to the enclosure (in addition to loudspeakers that are also designed accounting for their directionality, position, and the volume of the enclosure).

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#170

Post by shantara »

systemtest wrote: post #92
ziml77 wrote: post #76

I probably should have returned mine. I still love the idea of the device, but the speakers, display, and trackpad are subpar. I get that I'm spoiled by the quality of a MacBook Pro in those areas, but they still feel worse than other laptops I've tried. Also he says he's never heard the fans spin up but I've had the system spin the fans up very high and they get loud. And the spin-up was definitely valid the times w…

Would be cool if Framework would sell speakers, a display, trackpad and housing comparable in quality to a MacBook Pro. It would have a high pricetag but you could slowly upgrade your machine. Especially since swapping out speakers or a trackpad is so easy. Right now the Laptop 13 speaker kit is €20 but they could offer a €150 option that performs similar to a MacBook Pro for people who value sound.

It's not only a matter of having better hardware (though it certainly helps a lot). For example, Apple does a lot of software tuning and tweaking to make the Macbook speakers sound as good as they do. And it's been fascinating to read the extent of work Asahi Linux had to do to recreate the software portion of Macbook's audio stack.

https://asahilinux.org/docs/sw/audio-userspace/ https://github.com/AsahiLinux/asahi-audio

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