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The Deviancy Signal: Having "Nothing to Hide" Is a Threat to Us All

thompson2026.com

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Re: The Deviancy Signal: Having "Nothing to Hide" Is a Threat to Us All

#161

Post by amanaplanacanal »

throwaway290 wrote: post #153
mindslight wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I mean is that it's not a legitimate argument in the context of good-faith discussion getting to the truths of matters, which is the ethos of this site. I didn't address the social aspects you brought up, and I really should have. Yes, there are many people repeating these arguments, despite them being trivially debunked. That is a big part of The Problem, right? "Flood the zone with shit" to overwhelm people's…

> What I mean is that it's not a legitimate argument in the context of good-faith discussion getting to the truths of matters, which is the ethos of this site. it's only not a legitimate argument if you are in a specific bubble. How do I know? Because I talk to people outside of it. Talk to some right-wing conservatives and you'll find out I promise you. > Yes, there are many people repeating these arguments, despite…

Just because people don't understand how the legal system works, even though it has been explained to them, doesn't mean we should listen to their intentionally ignorant arguments.

They won't understand until somebody they know falls to the machine, then they'll say "oh I thought it would only happen to people I don't like."

Re: The Deviancy Signal: Having "Nothing to Hide" Is a Threat to Us All

#162

Post by estearum »

throwaway290 wrote: post #159
estearum wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their argument is that only non citizens who committed some crime get deported This has always been true in the US, and is increasingly not true now. The data is extremely clear on this. > any non citizen can get deported because nothing in constitution prevents it This is only true with an asterisk which makes it not applicable to the current situation. In the US, even non-citizens (even the subset of illegal non-…

Show the data then. Seriously. I couldn't find examples of deports of US citizens OR non citizens who did not commit crime or administrative wrongdoing. > non-citizens have due process rights Yes, so now you said US should hold itself to higher standard. And I already said I agree with it. > "Whether someone is a citizen or not" is actually completely irrelevant for the question of whether they have due process right…

Almost none of the recent detainees have serious criminal convictions.

The vast majority of detainees have no criminal conviction at all (spoiler alert: because you already get fucking deported when you commit a crime in the US if you're here illegally... OBVIOUSLY.)

Nearly half don't even have pending criminal charges.

https://www.cato.org/blog/5-ice-detainees-have-violent-convi...

It's hard to know how many don't have administrative violations, but we do know they're routinely arresting people who are literally at the administrative proceedings to manage their immigration status. Such people are almost by definition following the law. We also know the Trump administration has cancelled hundreds of thousands (millions now?) of legal immigration statuses and declared previously legal people to be illegal overnight.

Every set of handcuffs and every seat on a plane for a non-criminal is one removed from the alleged hordes of violent illegal criminals who are overrunning our cities. We already saw during the first Trump administration that his "aggressive" immigration posture actually increased the processing time for actually dangerous/violent people because it stuffed the processing queues with all sorts of people who were causing no trouble to begin with.

> which part of constitution [gives due process rights to non-citizens]

The same part that gives it to citizens: The 5th Amendment.

> No person shall... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law

The writers knew that "no person" was a different scope than "no citizen," because in other parts of the document they identify citizens and non-citizens, where appropriate.

In fact it obviously functionally makes no sense to limit due process to citizens, because otherwise an autocrat could eliminate a citizen's due process rights (and all other Constitutional rights) simply be declaring them to be illegal and precluding them from a hearing to determine otherwise.

Re: The Deviancy Signal: Having "Nothing to Hide" Is a Threat to Us All

#163

Post by mindslight »

throwaway290 wrote: post #153
mindslight wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I mean is that it's not a legitimate argument in the context of good-faith discussion getting to the truths of matters, which is the ethos of this site. I didn't address the social aspects you brought up, and I really should have. Yes, there are many people repeating these arguments, despite them being trivially debunked. That is a big part of The Problem, right? "Flood the zone with shit" to overwhelm people's…

> What I mean is that it's not a legitimate argument in the context of good-faith discussion getting to the truths of matters, which is the ethos of this site. it's only not a legitimate argument if you are in a specific bubble. How do I know? Because I talk to people outside of it. Talk to some right-wing conservatives and you'll find out I promise you. > Yes, there are many people repeating these arguments, despite…

You need to stop sitting on the fence and thinking that the fascists' arguments are being made in good faith.

I'd say what's driving the grassroots is closer to pure anger, demanding solutions of "someone do something" for how they've been disenfranchised, for which this specter of "illegal immigrants" are being used as a scapegoat. You're not going to convince them of anything by pointing out that this strawman they just want to beat is entitled to Constitutional rights and due process. It's simply hindbrain tribal crap being stirred up by con man Trump and the fascist media bubble.

> Do you have enough introspection power to ask if you are doing that yourself right here?

I'm a libertarian who was both-sidesing up through Covid even. I had still thought there was a good chance Trump would come around to actually leading through June of 2020. Nope!

I still do occasionally ponder thoughts like - lets say I forget about the great amount of human suffering currently being created, and try on going with the flow and loving big brother - do I see any good economic outcomes from these policies here? And my answer still comes around to settling on no - they are continuing to destroy the core fabric of our country based around individual liberty and self determination, in favor of a strong man dictatorship. Trumpism is sold as some radical reset required to restore freedom, but it's merely the continued destruction of it.

>> when the bulk of political discourse revolves around flamebait

>This is not flamebait for the reasons I explained

You have not explained how it is not flamebait. Being popular does not mean something is not flamebait. If you respond to these right-wing "conservative" (aka fascist, actual conservatives were called RINOs and kicked out of the Party), you get back a flood of more half-baked arguments and you're off to the races, right? That's a flamewar, even if you keep your tempers. The only ways that conversation is going to end is to agree to disagree, the topic gets changed, or in anger and frustration.

(fwiw I'd say this dynamic of radical flamebait as common discourse applies to parts of the Democratic party as well)

Re: The Deviancy Signal: Having "Nothing to Hide" Is a Threat to Us All

#164

Post by throwaway290 »

estearum wrote: post #162
throwaway290 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show the data then. Seriously. I couldn't find examples of deports of US citizens OR non citizens who did not commit crime or administrative wrongdoing. > non-citizens have due process rights Yes, so now you said US should hold itself to higher standard. And I already said I agree with it. > "Whether someone is a citizen or not" is actually completely irrelevant for the question of whether they have due process right…

Almost none of the recent detainees have serious criminal convictions. The vast majority of detainees have no criminal conviction at all (spoiler alert: because you already get fucking deported when you commit a crime in the US if you're here illegally... OBVIOUSLY. ) Nearly half don't even have pending criminal charges. https://www.cato.org/blog/5-ice-detainees-have-violent-convi... It's hard to know how many don't…

I'm sorry to be pedantic but your article points out that x% have convictions, xx% have no convictions, and does not take into account who of them are illegal (undocumented).

I don't ask for much, is there a specific story of ONE case where somebody was deported (not detained) who is - US citizen or - legal document immigrant with no crimes and violations?

if you give me that then I will use this next time when arguing with right wing ppl I know. thanks

Re: The Deviancy Signal: Having "Nothing to Hide" Is a Threat to Us All

#165

Post by throwaway290 »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #160
throwaway290 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show the data then. Seriously. I couldn't find examples of deports of US citizens OR non citizens who did not commit crime or administrative wrongdoing. > non-citizens have due process rights Yes, so now you said US should hold itself to higher standard. And I already said I agree with it. > "Whether someone is a citizen or not" is actually completely irrelevant for the question of whether they have due process right…

The fifth amendment. Everybody is allowed due process. Only a judge or jury can decide whether someone has violated the law.

Thank you

Re: The Deviancy Signal: Having "Nothing to Hide" Is a Threat to Us All

#166

Post by throwaway290 »

mindslight wrote: post #163
throwaway290 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I mean is that it's not a legitimate argument in the context of good-faith discussion getting to the truths of matters, which is the ethos of this site. it's only not a legitimate argument if you are in a specific bubble. How do I know? Because I talk to people outside of it. Talk to some right-wing conservatives and you'll find out I promise you. > Yes, there are many people repeating these arguments, despite…

You need to stop sitting on the fence and thinking that the fascists' arguments are being made in good faith. I'd say what's driving the grassroots is closer to pure anger, demanding solutions of "someone do something" for how they've been disenfranchised, for which this specter of "illegal immigrants" are being used as a scapegoat. You're not going to convince them of anything by pointing out that this strawman they…

> thinking that the fascists' arguments are being made in good faith.

> If you respond to these right-wing "conservative" (aka fascist, actual conservatives were called RINOs and kicked out of the Party), you get back a flood of more half-baked arguments and you're off to the races, right?

I argue about it with people I know who are center right. they sometimes make some good points and as non american it's hard to defeat them. maybe their arguments are stupid to you but not so stupid to me.

So this is informative to me to know the counter arguments.

also, it seems that there is a majority of people who voted right in US, if you believe the last election. just calling then fascists doesn't help convince them. but facts can

Re: The Deviancy Signal: Having "Nothing to Hide" Is a Threat to Us All

#167

Post by throwaway290 »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #161
throwaway290 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I mean is that it's not a legitimate argument in the context of good-faith discussion getting to the truths of matters, which is the ethos of this site. it's only not a legitimate argument if you are in a specific bubble. How do I know? Because I talk to people outside of it. Talk to some right-wing conservatives and you'll find out I promise you. > Yes, there are many people repeating these arguments, despite…

Just because people don't understand how the legal system works, even though it has been explained to them, doesn't mean we should listen to their intentionally ignorant arguments. They won't understand until somebody they know falls to the machine, then they'll say "oh I thought it would only happen to people I don't like."

So out there in social media some americans who don't understand how legal system works defeat in arguments other americans who don't understand how legal system works.

Do you think all americans on HN are definitely smart and understand now legal system works and if they are on the fence then they are malicious fascists? If yes then sure that post deserved to be flagged.

Re: The Deviancy Signal: Having "Nothing to Hide" Is a Threat to Us All

#168

Post by estearum »

throwaway290 wrote: post #164
estearum wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost none of the recent detainees have serious criminal convictions. The vast majority of detainees have no criminal conviction at all (spoiler alert: because you already get fucking deported when you commit a crime in the US if you're here illegally... OBVIOUSLY. ) Nearly half don't even have pending criminal charges. https://www.cato.org/blog/5-ice-detainees-have-violent-convi... It's hard to know how many don't…

I'm sorry to be pedantic but your article points out that x% have convictions, xx% have no convictions, and does not take into account who of them are illegal (undocumented). I don't ask for much, is there a specific story of ONE case where somebody was deported (not detained) who is - US citizen or - legal document immigrant with no crimes and violations? if you give me that then I will use this next time when argui…

Sure: Andy Hernandez Romero, who is among hundreds and perhaps thousands of completely rule-following asylum seekers who have been deported without due process in violation of our own Constitution and asylum laws.

Re: The Deviancy Signal: Having "Nothing to Hide" Is a Threat to Us All

#169

Post by greatgib »

mjd wrote: post #83
luckys wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is your contract with Ovo Energy? Companies cannot just go charge random people willy-nilly like that.

You have missed the point of the story. GP is not a customer of Ovo energy. They sent him a bill in error . “Companies cannot just go charge random people” And yet they do. Anyone can send anyone a bill.

Anyone can send a bill but you can just throw it in the trash without even responding if there is not contract...
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