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NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

airqualitynews.com

161–170 of 211 posts

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#161
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we have millions of miles of free roads. Are you familiar with the gas tax? Vehicle registration fees?

Roads are very expensive. Those taxes are never high enough to pay for the roads.

Wait until you learn how expensive railway is

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the strictest "policy" I've seen and I was asking about any specific health data not WHO guidelines "In NYC, around 1 in 20 deaths is linked to air pollution." A difference between 8 and 12 PM 2.5 levels won't change that

> A difference between 8 and 12 PM 2.5 levels won't change that Yes, it will, and that's the point I was making. There are some things that have no harmful affects below certain concentrations, in that they are not toxic at low levels. PM 2.5 particles are not one of those - they are toxic at all levels. It's quite similar, in this context, to ionizing radiation. There is no safe level of ionizing radiation - every X…

So about ionising radiation: UNSCEAR recommendation is to act as if no threshold effect exist at low doses for indeterministic effects (even though effectively we act as if a 100mSv threshold exists), but the medical literature isn't as clear cut. Precautionary principle should be respected in any cases.

The most recent epidemiology studies (studies on _very_ large cohort) do seems to favour a linear model without threshold (or, if the threshold exists, it is so low ambient radiation is enough to go past it), so I think you're right, but I wanted to nitpick because you wrote it like it was settled science and it's not yet, so I had to look up the PM 2.5 stuff too.

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#163
post #6

What did it do to GDP? (Sincerely asking)

Since GDP growth in the US is dependant on medical care and on new car sales, it probably decreased it on the short term.

A sudden decrease in car crash would probably decrease the GDP the year it happen, then the fact that less people are dying or disabled would probably increase it in the long run. It will probably have the same effect here.

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#164
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Roads are very expensive. Those taxes are never high enough to pay for the roads.

Wait until you learn how expensive railway is

To maintain? Way less, even high speed track are less expensive than highways (especially per traveller)

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#165

The article says "average daily peak concentrations of PM2.5 dropped by 3.05 µg/m³. For context, background pollution levels in the region typically hover around 8-9 µg/m³, making this reduction particularly significant for public health." But 8-9 was already considered a safe level: "Most studies indicate PM2.5 at or below 12 μg/m3 is considered healthy with little to no risk from exposure. If the level goes to or a…

Even if the risk was linear/exponential with threshold at 12 for everyone, including infants and elderly, the 30% average reduction is likely mostly done by smoothing the peaks (since you probably have a base level of PM2.5). So you would have more than a 30% reduction in days in which you are exposed to above-threshold PM2.5

Btw, it's a very legitimate remark, please don't down vote the parent. (Sorry about meta commentary I try to avoid)

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#166

The article says "average daily peak concentrations of PM2.5 dropped by 3.05 µg/m³. For context, background pollution levels in the region typically hover around 8-9 µg/m³, making this reduction particularly significant for public health." But 8-9 was already considered a safe level: "Most studies indicate PM2.5 at or below 12 μg/m3 is considered healthy with little to no risk from exposure. If the level goes to or a…

The hidden risk of round numbers and sharp thresholds in clinical practice: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41746-025-02079-y Smaller doses of a poison are better than less small doses. Using coarse linguistic categories to argue otherwise is an abuse of the purpose of categories as a linguistic tool.

Kinda irrelevant, since 12 isn't really a round number (like 10 would be).

Further, the article is essentially saying that there is far less difference between 11 and 13 than might be assumed by a categorical model that says one level is inside the "safe" level and one is outside of it. But that isn't the issue here - 9 was already quite safe, the risk is very close to zero, so going lower doesn't reduce risk much - because the existing risk can't get much lower.

> Smaller doses of a poison are better than less small doses

Since 1996, the EPA has mandated that unleaded gasoline must be below 0.05 grams of lead per gallon. While the elimination of lead up to this point was a massive benefit to public health, is there any significant health benefit to reducing this further below 0.05? If so, who's claiming that and why haven't the standards changed in 30 years?

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do EVs help with congestion? They take up the same amount of space as an ICE car.

They can go into cheap, boring tunnels (little ventilation requirements)

They can't (fire safety requirements make all tunnels expensive)

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#168
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> NYC has the advantage of being old before cars became affordable. Aren't Euro cities generally much older than those in the New World?

NYC was never bombed to rubble and explicitly rebuilt after the American dream that everyone should drive everywhere.

Most cities weren't bombed, and no all that were got rebuilt only for cars.

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#169
post #47

It's frustrating how poorly most people understand economics and the distinction between price and cost. Everybody in the world is being asked to blithely accept the massive unpaid costs of motor vehicle usage. This is a tiny step towards recouping some of this costs. Roadways, parking, collisions, pollution, noise have all be costs born by all of us. And in NYC that's a load of non-drivers. We should be adopting all…

there isn’t a yard of a road that is free

If you're only paying for a couple of those yards, does it matter if the others are literally free or if you distribute that payment to all of them while paying a couple percent each?

It's a distinction without a difference.

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#170
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if you build the city like Tokyo instead of like Dallas. Average commute in Tokyo is 45 minutes to an hour one way: https://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/2014/08/05/231455 . Average commute time in Dallas is 26 minutes one way: https://dallas.culturemap.com/news/city-life/dallas-suburb-s... I’m not aware of any transit-oriented city where average commute times are as low in absolute terms as in sprawling, car-depe…

Tokyo has a population of some 14 million. Dallas is about 1.3 million. Did you pick cities with populations exactly 10x apart on purpose or something? Got any real stats?

So what? Why do you need one city with 13 million people when the US has the land area to build 10 cities with 1.3 million people?
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