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Uncloud - Tool for deploying containerised apps across servers without k8s

uncloud.run

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Re: Uncloud - Tool for deploying containerised apps across servers without k8s

#161

Post by RyanHamilton »

mgaunard wrote: post #106
Glemkloksdjf wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you build an insecure version of nomad/kubernetes and co? If you do anything professional, you better choose proven software like kubernetes or managed kubernetes or whatever else all the hyperscalers provide. And the complexity you are solving now or have to solve, k8s solved. IaC for example, Cloud Provider Support for provisioning a LB out of the box, cert-manager, all the helm charts for observability, logging…

Those are all sub-par cloud technologies which perform very badly and do not scale at all. Some people would rather build their own solutions to do these things with fine-grain control and the ability to handle workloads more complex that a shopping cart website.

I've tried to refrain from commenting but your comment pushed me over the edge. I either want to dismiss your comment as ignorant that amazon is just a shopping cart or ignorant that you even need cloud technologies until you have 1000s of customers. But I must concede there's a chance you fall in that middle area and I'm wrong. It's < 5 percent. But yeah sure.. we have a scale problem and you're right you've identified the nonsense cloud technologies that won't fix it. I'm glad you chimed in to convince us but to build our own for 5000 customers.

Re: Uncloud - Tool for deploying containerised apps across servers without k8s

#162

Post by esseph »

JohnMakin wrote: post #48
esseph wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try it on bare metal where you're managing the distributed storage and the hardware and the network and the upgrades too :)

Why would you want to do that though? On cloud, in my experience, you are mostly paying for compute with managed kubernetes instances. The overhead and price is almost never kubernetes itself, but the compute and storage you are provisioning, which, thanks to the control plane, you have complete control over. what am i missing? I wouldn’t dare try to with a small shop try to self host a production kubernetes solution…

I was responding to:

> even managing a few hundred nodes and maybe 10,000 containers, relatively small - I update once a year and the managed cluster updates machine images and versions automatically. Are people trying to self host kubernetes for production cases, and that’s where this pain comes from?

Much of the pain of kubernetes is not the day to day care and feeding of the applications most of the time, it's managing the cluster itself, upgrades, hardware, etc.

Many regulated industries can not run certain workloads in "the cloud", hence where the pain of running kubernetes (at least at first) comes from.

Re: Uncloud - Tool for deploying containerised apps across servers without k8s

#163

Post by esseph »

lnenad wrote: post #49
esseph wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Managing hundreds or thousands of containers across hundreds or thousands of k8s nodes has a lot of operational challenges. Especially in-house on bare metal.

But that's not what anyone is arguing here, nor what (to me it seems at least) uncloud is about. It's about simpler HA multinode setup with a single/low double digit containers.

> I’m really not sure why K8S has become the complexity boogeyman.

Was what i was responding to. It's not the app management that becomes a pain, it's the cluster management, lifecycle, platform API deprecations, etc.

Re: Uncloud - Tool for deploying containerised apps across servers without k8s

#164

Post by rc_mob »

lillecarl wrote: post #53
scottydelta wrote: post #41

As a happy user of coolify, what’s the difference between these two? Even coolify lets you add as many machines as you want and then manage docker containers in all machines from one coolify installation.

Vendor lock-in, Kubernetes is future proof.

No we're looking for comparisons of coolify vs uncloud

Re: Uncloud - Tool for deploying containerised apps across servers without k8s

#165

Post by snthpy »

psviderski wrote: post #2

Hey, creator here. Thanks for sharing this! Uncloud[0] is a container orchestrator without a control plane. Think multi-machine Docker Compose with automatic WireGuard mesh, service discovery, and HTTPS via Caddy. Each machine just keeps a p2p-synced copy of cluster state (using Fly.io's Corrosion), so there's no quorum to maintain. I’m building Uncloud after years of managing Kubernetes in small envs and at a unicor…

Wow, this sounds very cool.

I share the same concern as top comments on security but going to check out out in more detail.

I wonder if you integrated some decentralized identity layer with DIDs, if this could be turned into some distributed compute platform?

Also, what is your thinking on high availability and fail failovers?

Re: Uncloud - Tool for deploying containerised apps across servers without k8s

#166

Post by snthpy »

psviderski wrote: post #78
mosselman wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a graph that shows a multi provider setup for a domain. Where would routing to either machine happen? As in which ip would you use on the dns side?

For the public cluster with multiple ingress (caddy) nodes you'd need a load balancer in front of them to properly handle routing and outage of any of them. You'd use the IP of the load balancer on the DNS side. Note that a DNS A record with multiple IPs doesn't provide failover, only round robin. But you can use the Cloudflare DNS proxy feature as a poor man's LB. Just add 2+ proxied A records (orange cloud) pointin…

I looked into this yesterday for making Caddy HA on my Proxmox cluster and stumbled upon keepalivd. It will provide you with a virtual IP and failover but not load balancing so you'd need to still point that at something like HAProxy for that.

Could be something interesting to integrate though.

Re: Uncloud - Tool for deploying containerised apps across servers without k8s

#167

Post by snthpy »

psviderski wrote: post #82
oulipo2 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's a kind of better Docker Swarm? It's interesting, but honestly I'd rather have something declarative, so I can use it with Pulumi, would it be complicated to add a declarative engine on top of the tool? Which discovers what services are already up, do a diff with the new declaration, and handles changes?

This is exactly how it works now. The Compose file is the declarative specification of your services you want to run. When you run 'uc deploy' command: - it reads the spec from your compose.yaml - inspects the current state of the services in the cluster - computes the diff and deployment plan to reconcile it - executes the plan after the confirmation Please see the docs and demo: https://uncloud.run/docs/guides/depl…

That's really interesting and cool. In that case calling it imperative rather than declarative is underselling it imho. I haven't worked that much with Terraform but in my usage from the cli, that is how it works too and I consider that declarative.

I get that putting the declarative spec in the control plane and having the service autoreconcile continuously is another layer but this is great as a start.

In fact could you not just cron the cli deployment command on the nodes and get an effective poor man's declarative layer to guard against node failures if your ok with a 1 min or 1 sec recovery objective?

Re: Uncloud - Tool for deploying containerised apps across servers without k8s

#168

Post by snthpy »

bluepuma77 wrote: post #111
Glemkloksdjf wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you build an insecure version of nomad/kubernetes and co? If you do anything professional, you better choose proven software like kubernetes or managed kubernetes or whatever else all the hyperscalers provide. And the complexity you are solving now or have to solve, k8s solved. IaC for example, Cloud Provider Support for provisioning a LB out of the box, cert-manager, all the helm charts for observability, logging…

It's not a k8s replacement. It's for the small dev team with no k8s experience. For people that might not use Docker Swarm because they see it's a pretty dead project. For people who think "everyone uses k8s", so we should, too. I need to run on-prem, so managed k8s is not an option. Experts tells me I should have 2 FTE to run k8s, which I don't have. k8s has so many components, how should I debug that in case of iss…

I still run docker swarm on 3 servers. Haven't needed to update it much over the past 5 years.

Re: Uncloud - Tool for deploying containerised apps across servers without k8s

#169

Post by snthpy »

JohnMakin wrote: post #17

Having spent most of my career in kubernetes (usually managed by cloud), I always wonder when I see things like this, what is the use case or benefit of not having a control plane? To me, the control plane is the primary feature of kubernetes and one I would not want to go without. I know this describes operational overhead as a reason, but how it relates to the control plane is not clear to me. even managing a few h…

For an SME with nonetheless critical workloads, 10000 containers is not small. To me that's massive in fact. I run less than 10 but I need those to be HA. uncloud sounds great for my use case.

Re: Uncloud - Tool for deploying containerised apps across servers without k8s

#170

Post by snthpy »

JohnMakin wrote: post #52
psviderski wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not rude at all. The benefit is a much simpler model where you simply connect machines in a network where every machine is equal. You can add more, remove some. No need to worry about an HA 3-node centralised “cluster brain”. There isn’t one. It’s a similar experience when a cloud provider manages the control plane for you. But you have to worry about the availability when you host everything yourself. Losing etcd qu…

If you are a small operation and trying to self host k3s or k8s or any number of out of the box installations that are probably at least as complex as docker compose swarms, for any non trivial production case, presents similar problems in monitoring and availability as ones you’d get with off the shelf cloud provider managed services, except the managed solutions come without the pain in the ass. Except you don’t ha…

Yes, not everyone is allowed to use cloud services. There's also the cost. I haven't spent a cent on infrastructure in 5 years (other than my time). Using cloud services comes with extra costs and meetings to justify those costs. Plus, not everyone is in the USA or 1st world country where those costs are negligible. Necessity is the mother of invention.
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