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UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

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Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#161

Post by nebula8804 »

makingstuffs wrote: post #19
willahmad wrote: post #2

It’s ironic how the West has long championed democracy, demanded freedom of speech, and called for human rights from everyone. Only to suddenly adopt authoritarian, anti-free speech, anti-human rights, and anti-protest stances the moment free speech began to critique Israel. It’s truly shameful to see such developments.

Honestly, if you are able to, get out while you still can. For too long we’ve been on this slippery path and no government has any incentive to step off it. People speak as though Farage would be any different but fail to acknowledge that he is as much a grifter as any of the others running, if not more so. Maybe the Greens would provide some change but, at this point, they’re no more than a protest vote which is why…

And go where? The US is in pretty bad shape and sinking. Europe can be a bit better or much worse depending on your background. Is there any solid alternative?

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#162

Post by belorn »

yadaeno wrote: post #113

In 2023, the number of people arrested for online comments: UK (12,183), Belarus (6,205), Germany (3,500), China (1,500). How do people in the UK defend this? I consider myself a liberal and to defend this government is a level of hypocrisy so beyond the pale. Am I being reactionary here? Are things actually not that bad in the UK?

As with all statistics, one has to first define where the data source is from.

In this case there is an news article for that (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tommy-robinson-uk-speech-cla...).

To summarize the article, the data is highly unreliable and aren't comparable, nor is it normalized to the population. A person in UK can be charged under Section 127 of the Communications Act 2003 if they voice a death threat over the phone, while the Belarus case can be a person criticizing the government on twitter. It can also be a person in the UK who sent a unsolicited sexual image. As a legal analyze of Section 127 frames it, most thing it makes illegal is already illegal under other laws which makes it difficult to analyze the scope. A person who sends a death threat is breaking the law both by sending a death threat, but also by using (abusing) a telecom service for the purpose of sending a death threat. It is a bit of an catch all clause.

In the US it is currently very likely that every crime that involves money also involve wire fraud, unless people only use physical cash and never transfer them. They usually also involve tax fraud since illegal money is rarely declared. That makes statistics involving tax and wire fraud in the US a bit difficult to parse into meaningful data.

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#163

Post by orwin »

stronglikedan wrote: post #151
aranw wrote: post #70

There is probably a legitimate basis for some powers against actual foreign intelligence operations. But the proposals in the article defining "subversion" to include environmental activism, independence movements, or criticism of UK policy show how quickly these things expand beyond their original scope. The Terrorism Act was meant to exclude domestic activists but two decades later it has been used against protest…

[flagged]

Most antifascist groups are not protest groups. Most of them are watchdogs. When a story about military groups (including police) making nazi salutes or getting nazi tattoos or praying in front a a picture of Hitler come out, 99% of the time it's an antifa group that contacted a journalist and provided them picture, dates and specifics about the story. If you want to arrest all antifascists, you will have to arrest half of the OSINT community, because they're the one who developed a lot of the tools.

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#164

Post by philipallstar »

tremon wrote: post #134
philipallstar wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was nothing to do with the US. I was actually thinking about the UK's laws when I wrote it. I'm trying to talk ideas; your post is riddled with just identifying which team is the goodies and the baddies. I don't think there's much common ground to be had between discussing ideas vs tribalism.

Yes, you were thinking of the UK's laws, but from the perspective of the US Constitution. There's an implicit tribalism in your own post where you assume without contest that the US' definition of free speech is the only one that can possibly have merit.

I'm not a US citizen. You're making all this up.

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#165

Post by philipallstar »

soulofmischief wrote: post #140
philipallstar wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was nothing to do with the US. I was actually thinking about the UK's laws when I wrote it. I'm trying to talk ideas; your post is riddled with just identifying which team is the goodies and the baddies. I don't think there's much common ground to be had between discussing ideas vs tribalism.

They're all the baddies, at least in the US. You must have missed the part where I described both parties as contributing to authoritarian fascism. It's ridiculous to accuse me of peddling tribalism when my post intentionally pushed back against the very tribalism coloring your original post. Can we get back on topic?

> It's ridiculous to accuse me of peddling tribalism when my post intentionally pushed back against the very tribalism coloring your original post.

No it didn't. You said this has just appeared, when actually it's been happening for years.

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#166

Post by varispeed »

derelicta wrote: post #152
varispeed wrote: post #111

Of course, combined with Digital ID that will track your movements and what you say, this is a logical next step to achieve total control of the population. Funny that nobody mentions that these things are not actually coming from government, but were lobbied by asset managers and big corporations. This is text book fascism (marriage of big corporations and government). Nobody voted for this.

The Bourgeois have voted for this. Know your enemy.

No, democratic process was replaced by wine and steak dinners, whilst security services responsible for protecting democracy looked away.

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#167

Post by makingstuffs »

nebula8804 wrote: post #161
makingstuffs wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, if you are able to, get out while you still can. For too long we’ve been on this slippery path and no government has any incentive to step off it. People speak as though Farage would be any different but fail to acknowledge that he is as much a grifter as any of the others running, if not more so. Maybe the Greens would provide some change but, at this point, they’re no more than a protest vote which is why…

And go where? The US is in pretty bad shape and sinking. Europe can be a bit better or much worse depending on your background. Is there any solid alternative?

You’re right in that there is no one place which will solve all of one’s problems. There is an entire continent across the channel which will at least permit you to easily travel through, and settle in, a decent number of countries with very little effort.

While it’s not a silver bullet by any means, being able to freely move between, and experience, multiple cultures outweighs the melancholy we have back in Blighty.

We, in the UK, are constantly told how great we have it in terms of healthcare and welfare. The reality is the opposite. Our healthcare is barely fit for purpose. Our welfare system fails to help those who need it the most.

The one thing I have noticed more than anything else during my travels is that we, in the UK, have resigned our ourselves to a mentality of hopeless acceptance of the status quo. We tend to shrug it off with reductive statements such as ‘well, X has Y problem’ as if that justifies the swathe of issues which should not be present in a country which has tried to position itself on the world stage as a vestibule for decency and morality over the past century.

Nowhere is _perfect_, but many places are _better_.

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#168

Post by ben_w »

tremon wrote: post #138
ben_w wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so, I never got the impression that Israel is all that big a deal in the UK in either direction. If they are, they're a lot more subtle about it than they are with regard to USA politics.

The fact that peaceful protesters against the Gaza genocide got labeled as terrorists should be sufficient evidence that the UK government still very much shares their bed with Israel.

Palestine Action were proscribed for a level of violence ("property damage" against the RAF, vandalised aircraft, which makes it sound worse than it is because it was spray paint in the engines) that had previously been considered acceptable.

But "peaceful"? A protest on 6 August 2024 resulted in a charge of grievous bodily harm after an activist allegedly struck a police officer with a sledgehammer, and a protest on 16 March 2025 resulted in three activists being charged with one count each of assault by beating.

I get why they're doing this, but if I'm going to call the Jan 6 thing in Washington DC "attempted coup" (which I do), I have to also say this is not "peaceful".

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#169

Post by soulofmischief »

philipallstar wrote: post #165
soulofmischief wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're all the baddies, at least in the US. You must have missed the part where I described both parties as contributing to authoritarian fascism. It's ridiculous to accuse me of peddling tribalism when my post intentionally pushed back against the very tribalism coloring your original post. Can we get back on topic?

> It's ridiculous to accuse me of peddling tribalism when my post intentionally pushed back against the very tribalism coloring your original post. No it didn't. You said this has just appeared, when actually it's been happening for years.

Are you confusing me with the other user you replied to higher up?

Re: UK Government plans new powers to label dissenting movements as 'subversion'

#170

Post by pbiggar »

ben_w wrote: post #168
tremon wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that peaceful protesters against the Gaza genocide got labeled as terrorists should be sufficient evidence that the UK government still very much shares their bed with Israel.

Palestine Action were proscribed for a level of violence ("property damage" against the RAF, vandalised aircraft, which makes it sound worse than it is because it was spray paint in the engines) that had previously been considered acceptable. But "peaceful"? A protest on 6 August 2024 resulted in a charge of grievous bodily harm after an activist allegedly struck a police officer with a sledgehammer, and a protest on…

If the UK shut down everything that was related to occasional violence, there wouldn't be a pub left in England.
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